(Spoilers) Did I miss clues about what happened between jimmy and anya

[SoldierGuy]

I never got the feeling he sa'd her, more felt like a fling that ended up with her pregnant and with everything else jimmy being emotionally unstable, he wouldn't want a child
Now given the "fling" could've been more a drunken thing that happened if curly made cocktails for the crew one night but yeah
also this game was amazing

[MURDER BEAR ESPORTS]

I'm trying to understand how you think "deadbeat dad and abusive partner who chose group murder-suicide over taking responsibility" is any more deserving of being a sympathetic character than "Rapist chooses murder-suicide over taking responsibility and being held accountable for his actions."

Like i genuinely don't understand the logic here. No matter how you slice it he's an irredeemable monster.

Also I didn't say that the point of the story is just bad people exist. But a lot of the story addresses how people like Jimmy manipulate the narrative to never accept fault or take responsibility for their actions and the harm they do to others.

[jra.470]

Originally posted by MURDER BEAR ESPORTS:

I'm trying to understand how you think "deadbeat dad and abusive partner who chose group murder-suicide over taking responsibility" is any more deserving of being a sympathetic character than "Rapist chooses murder-suicide over taking responsibility and being held accountable for his actions."

Like i genuinely don't understand the logic here. No matter how you slice it he's an irredeemable monster.

Also I didn't say that the point of the story is just bad people exist. But a lot of the story addresses how people like Jimmy manipulate the narrative to never accept fault or take responsibility for their actions and the harm they do to others.

fair enough man, I'm not defending him as a person, but I feel there's definitely a defined line that's crossed between everything Jimmy is and a rapist. Like i said before, he could either be a delusional irresponsible screw up or just a shallow piss creek of chaos. which one is more compelling

[Jagshemash]

Originally posted by Saint Skeleton:

I’m just still so stuck on why Anya had to tell Jimmy she was pregnant at all … and alone to top it off

To me that just doesn’t make sense, you wouldn’t confront your predator like that


But I could make sense of confronting an abusive partner like that :boozebottle:

I think viewing what happened between the characters on a trivial level, though they are real people with their own real thoughts, isn’t going to help us get to the bottom of the debate,
We have to think about why the writer would choose to write that…

I think the point that Anya told Jimmy is the whole meaning of the game: Curly did nothing. We play Curly in this scene, and we are left totally in the dark about the fact that Jimmy knows. Curly walking in on that chaos and then us as players finding out that Jimmy crashed the ship from an alternative point of view brings in an intense psychological aspect, which is the plot twist we experience. Up until this point, we think it is Curly who crashed the ship; it’s at this point we find out that Jim is the bad guy.

This brings a whole other level to the fact that Curly did nothing to be responsible for Jimmy and protect the crew’s safety, which is the overarching metaphor; Curly laid there suffering post-crash as a result of his lack of action prior to the crash, he didn’t tell Jimmy or have a talk with him, he didn’t redirect the ship or anything else that could have prevented or at least fixed Jimmy's “mistakes” (I say “mistakes” lightly because SA is not just a “mistake” by the assailant just like crashing the ship wasn’t a “mistake” as Jimmy calls it all in the end).

The protagonist in this story, in a big way, is Curly; why else would we play through him prior to the crash? Because we, as players, suffered for him post-crash which is the whole point of the game, we couldn’t play as Curly post-crash or make our own decision to tell Jimmy pre-crash because the motif of the game is that Curly didn't take responsibility so the metaphor is that Curly was incapacitated as a result of his lack of action. This is why it’s not a “would have” or “could have” happened decision game; we play this game as explicit witnesses of the explicit decisions/actions of all the characters.

The plot twist changes the whole dynamics of the characters, up until that scene where Anya tells Curly she told Jimmy that she’s pregnant, we think Jimmy is just a troubled man with the weight of a captain's responsibilities dumped on him, maybe it is as though we think maybe Anya and him could have “just had a fling” because up until that point, we view Jimmy the way in which Jimmy views himself, and then this is when we as players start the piece everything together in the plot on our own, thus the reason we play as Jimmy is to watch the way in which he views himself as hard done by when in reality every other character is hard done by, and he never takes responsibility for HIS actions; instead he still thinks he's the "responsible" one.

I think the reason we play as Curly is that we are at that point in time sitting at Curly's point of view (at least if we consider the story in a linear fashion). We see things from Curly's perspective; we don’t know what kind of monster we’ve just been giving a shot and playing for.

The debate of whether our worst moments define us within the dialogue really ties into why the characters did what they did. Playing as Jimmy shows what it’s like inside the mind of a perpetrator who is ignorant to the fact he's done wrong; playing as Curly (and watching Curly post-crash) shows us what it’s like inside the mind of an enabler before and after taking responsibility for their own ignorance. Anya, the victim as a consequence of everyone else around her, is caught up in the middle of all this, thus helplessly taking her own life. Swansea, the hopeless addict, a representation of anger and denial, drinking the problems away (not taking responsibility), and Daisuke, the apprentice, not experienced, not knowing what to do and not having any responsibility to do anything anyway (even if he knew what to do).

I believe that there’s a little bit of each character in all of us, and the whole “our worst moment don’t define us” kinda sums it all up in the sense that none of the characters could be idealised for their actions and choices... no one was the saviour and it begs the question of whether our choices made under pressure really do define us and then asks; which one are you going to choose to be when ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan:

- the ignorant perpetrator
- the irresponsible enabler
- The consequential and helpless victim
- The hopeless angry addict
- The inexperienced, untrained apprentice

I think the takeaway message of Mouthwashing is really to look a lot deeper into ourselves and think about what character we were playing in real life since it was just a game, and people don’t easily fit into such polarised narratives or boxes. What is your perception of a character in this story that "would have" or "could have" fixed everything and saved everyone... be it. Not to get cheesy, but yeah, you are the protagonist in your own story and don’t be a Jimmy, a Curly, an Anya, a Swansea, or a Daisuke
...fight for what you think is right, take responsibility and ensure the safety of others and, most importantly, the people among your "crew".

[Jagshemash]

I'd like to add (before what I say gets misconstrued) that my previous comment may have sounded like I was victim shaming, but I can guarantee I mean it in the sense that, if you could, what would you have done in Anya's shoes... shot Jim before the crash... told Swansen to crychanmber him.... quite literally forced Curly to do something... ♥♥♥♥ idk ask Daisuke to help in some way who knows how? (I'm hypothetically brainstorming at this point, but the very limited options she had goes to show how hard it is for a victim in this horrific scenario to reach out for help). However, don't be an Anya; definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY reach out to anyone you can for help before it's too late, and definitely, definitely, DEFINITELY do not end your life because everyone else around seems to absolutely and utterly ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ suck.

[Lunar]

Originally posted by rivierascarlet:

Up until this point, we think it is Curly who crashed the ship; it’s at this point we find out that Jim is the bad guy.

sorry to divert from the main topic of the conversation and stuff

weirdly enough, i didn't think it was Curly that crashed the ship, first i thought it was Anya since i barely knew who she was and her ID card was on the cockpit of the Tulpar, then it switched to Jimmy due to the fact he is the co-pilot, and we were sitting on where his chair was on the cockpit during the starting segment (at least, i assume the left chair on the cockpit is the co-pilot one, since he sat on it during the cockpit psych eval.

anyway, somewhat re-diverting to the main topic of the conversation

Anya said, during the beginning segments of the game i think, something that Jimmy said during one of his Psych Evals, it's among the lines of "I now feel a sexual attraction to a cartoon horse" (Jimmy doesn't state it himself, it's Anya apparently quoting something he said during a psych eval done by her) also, in the same or at least, an segment close to it timeline wise, she ask Curly to do Jimmy's psych eval instead of her doing the eval with him directly, since he "doesn't take them seriously", not sure if it was subtle foreshadowing or i'm just losing my mind over minor details.

[Jagshemash]

Originally posted by Lunar:

Originally posted by rivierascarlet:

Up until this point, we think it is Curly who crashed the ship; it’s at this point we find out that Jim is the bad guy.

weirdly enough, i didn't think it was Curly that crashed the ship, first i thought it was Anya since i barely knew who she was and her ID card was on the cockpit

I guess I can kinda understand what you are trying to theorise... but I really don't see that at all. I think that this perspective contradicts the whole narrative and takeaway message of the story. Sorry, it just sounds trivial to me, as the whole dialogue up until that point EXPLICITLY states that Curly did it.
The whole, like losing his job and not wanting to go back home, is his motive, in addition to the fact that without much character reference to Curly, it is easy to assume that he did it. I might state that it appeared INTENTIONALLY done on the writer's behalf to further the psychological plot twist for the players who, up until that point, thought that it was Curly.
No offence or anything, but this theory takes away from the whole watching Jimmy lose sanity thing as you realise it was him that crashed the ship, which is the psychological element shown throughout the whole game in the jealous desire that Jimmy had to be like responsible like Curly really starts to make sense (when in reality would a "responsible" captain allow his whole crew to suffer or would he protect the safety of his crew).

Originally posted by Lunar:

Anya said, during the beginning segments of the game i think, something that Jimmy said during one of his Psych Evals it's among the lines of "I now feel a sexual attraction to a cartoon horse" (Jimmy doesn't state it himself, it's Anya apparently quoting something he said during a psych eval done by her) also, in the same or at least, an segment close to it timeline wise, she ask Curly to do Jimmy's psych eval instead of her doing the eval with him directly, since he "doesn't take them seriously", not sure if it was subtle foreshadowing or i'm just losing my mind over minor details.

I'm really not sure what you are trying to say. Is it not obvious Curly did the eval on Jim instead because Anya was SA'd by Jim? Rather than "he doesn't take it seriously"? Isn't it that she probably doesn't feel safe or comfortable around him? This is another piece of info that tied the whole plot twist together as prior to finding out Jim crashed, we may have thought it was as simple as "he doesn't take it seriously" when after realising she's pregnant that kinda links up with the SA thing, especially considering the significance of that cockpit psych eval scene on top of that Curly offered to do it, and I think the timeline matches up for Curly to have known she was pregnant, but I'm not 100%.

Or do you mean that the comment about cartoon horses in the psych evaluation was foreshadowing Jim losing sanity over everything that occurred, including the SA? Yeah, that comment could link to the horse fetus and horse beast scenes, which is really tied to the whole SA theme.

[Saint Skeleton]

but why did Anya have to tell Jimmy he was the father?

Like what does that mean, what was the developer trying to tell us?

[MURDER BEAR ESPORTS]

Originally posted by jra.470:

The case for Jimmy having assaulted Anya is strong so I won't die on the hill that he didn't do it, but it doesn't add anything good to the story. Everything that makes him a compelling and sympathetic character despite all of his horrible actions goes directly out the window if it's true. It turns him from a tragically flawed delusional man who ran from responsibility until it was too late into just a shallow one dimensional piece of garbage who has little to no reasoning behind anything he does.

Wanted to come back to this because I can't get over "piece of garbage who has little to no reasoning behind anything he does"

No there is reasoning and logic, the reasoning is that Jimmy is a fundamentally cruel person who doesn't respect the agency or perspectives of others. You see this in how he talks to Anya and Curly, how he manipulates Daisuke into climbing into the vents and ignores Daisuke's very valid concerns, how he assumes the worst of Swansea withholding knowledge of the cryopod, how he tries to pin the blame for the crash on Curly.

He talks constantly about how annoyed he is to hear what a good captain Curly is - something which only matters if you consider it a personal affront that your friend is faring better than you are. He insists to Anya that "people need to be worth their titles" despite him only getting hired thanks to Curly. And at that point he KNOWS Curly didn't crash the ship but is still pretending Curly was at fault. It's a patter of behavior consistent with people who just want to exercise power and control over others, no matter how much it hurts people.

And this is consistent with him assaulting Anya, as rape is an act of power and dominance.

There is reasoning behind his actions, it's just that the reasoning makes him a horrible person.

[Jagshemash]

Originally posted by Saint Skeleton:

but why did Anya have to tell Jimmy he was the father?

Like what does that mean, what was the developer trying to tell us?

Originally posted by rivierascarlet:

I think viewing what happened between the characters on a trivial level, though they are real people with their own real thoughts, isn’t going to help us get to the bottom of the debate,
We have to think about why the writer would choose to write that…

I think the point that Anya told Jimmy is the whole meaning of the game: Curly did nothing. We play Curly in this scene, and we are left totally in the dark about the fact that Jimmy knows. Curly walking in on that chaos and then us as players finding out that Jimmy crashed the ship from an alternative point of view brings in an intense psychological aspect, which is the plot twist we experience. Up until this point, we think it is Curly who crashed the ship; it’s at this point we find out that Jim is the bad guy.

This brings a whole other level to the fact that Curly did nothing to be responsible for Jimmy and protect the crew’s safety, which is the overarching metaphor; Curly laid there suffering post-crash as a result of his lack of action prior to the crash, he didn’t tell Jimmy or have a talk with him, he didn’t redirect the ship or anything else that could have prevented or at least fixed Jimmy's “mistakes” (I say “mistakes” lightly because SA is not just a “mistake” by the assailant just like crashing the ship wasn’t a “mistake” as Jimmy calls it all in the end).

The protagonist in this story, in a big way, is Curly; why else would we play through him prior to the crash? Because we, as players, suffered for him post-crash which is the whole point of the game, we couldn’t play as Curly post-crash or make our own decision to tell Jimmy pre-crash because the motif of the game is that Curly didn't take responsibility so the metaphor is that Curly was incapacitated as a result of his lack of action. This is why it’s not a “would have” or “could have” happened decision game; we play this game as explicit witnesses of the explicit decisions/actions of all the characters.

The plot twist changes the whole dynamics of the characters, up until that scene where Anya tells Curly she told Jimmy that she’s pregnant, we think Jimmy is just a troubled man with the weight of a captain's responsibilities dumped on him, maybe it is as though we think maybe Anya and him could have “just had a fling” because up until that point, we view Jimmy the way in which Jimmy views himself, and then this is when we as players start the piece everything together in the plot on our own, thus the reason we play as Jimmy is to watch the way in which he views himself as hard done by when in reality every other character is hard done by, and he never takes responsibility for HIS actions; instead he still thinks he's the "responsible" one.

I think the reason we play as Curly is that we are at that point in time sitting at Curly's point of view (at least if we consider the story in a linear fashion). We see things from Curly's perspective; we don’t know what kind of monster we’ve just been giving a shot and playing for.

The debate of whether our worst moments define us within the dialogue really ties into why the characters did what they did. Playing as Jimmy shows what it’s like inside the mind of a perpetrator who is ignorant to the fact he's done wrong; playing as Curly (and watching Curly post-crash) shows us what it’s like inside the mind of an enabler before and after taking responsibility for their own ignorance. Anya, the victim as a consequence of everyone else around her, is caught up in the middle of all this, thus helplessly taking her own life. Swansea, the hopeless addict, a representation of anger and denial, drinking the problems away (not taking responsibility), and Daisuke, the apprentice, not experienced, not knowing what to do and not having any responsibility to do anything anyway (even if he knew what to do).

I believe that there’s a little bit of each character in all of us, and the whole “our worst moment don’t define us” kinda sums it all up in the sense that none of the characters could be idealised for their actions and choices... no one was the saviour and it begs the question of whether our choices made under pressure really do define us and then asks; which one are you going to choose to be when ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan:

- the ignorant perpetrator
- the irresponsible enabler
- The consequential and helpless victim
- The hopeless angry addict
- The inexperienced, untrained apprentice

I think the takeaway message of Mouthwashing is really to look a lot deeper into ourselves and think about what character we were playing in real life since it was just a game, and people don’t easily fit into such polarised narratives or boxes. What is your perception of a character in this story that "would have" or "could have" fixed everything and saved everyone... be it. Not to get cheesy, but yeah, you are the protagonist in your own story and don’t be a Jimmy, a Curly, an Anya, a Swansea, or a Daisuke
...fight for what you think is right, take responsibility and ensure the safety of others and, most importantly, the people among your "crew".

[jra.470]

Originally posted by MURDER BEAR ESPORTS:

Originally posted by jra.470:

The case for Jimmy having assaulted Anya is strong so I won't die on the hill that he didn't do it, but it doesn't add anything good to the story. Everything that makes him a compelling and sympathetic character despite all of his horrible actions goes directly out the window if it's true. It turns him from a tragically flawed delusional man who ran from responsibility until it was too late into just a shallow one dimensional piece of garbage who has little to no reasoning behind anything he does.

Wanted to come back to this because I can't get over "piece of garbage who has little to no reasoning behind anything he does"

No there is reasoning and logic, the reasoning is that Jimmy is a fundamentally cruel person who doesn't respect the agency or perspectives of others. You see this in how he talks to Anya and Curly, how he manipulates Daisuke into climbing into the vents and ignores Daisuke's very valid concerns, how he assumes the worst of Swansea withholding knowledge of the cryopod, how he tries to pin the blame for the crash on Curly.

He talks constantly about how annoyed he is to hear what a good captain Curly is - something which only matters if you consider it a personal affront that your friend is faring better than you are. He insists to Anya that "people need to be worth their titles" despite him only getting hired thanks to Curly. And at that point he KNOWS Curly didn't crash the ship but is still pretending Curly was at fault. It's a patter of behavior consistent with people who just want to exercise power and control over others, no matter how much it hurts people.

And this is consistent with him assaulting Anya, as rape is an act of power and dominance.

There is reasoning behind his actions, it's just that the reasoning makes him a horrible person.

man youre a good conversation wanna be friends

[Zombee]

anya asked why there's no locks on the sleeping quarters, basically saying she couldn't lock jimmy out and he assaulted her, dude how do u ignore sm of this game

[Saint Skeleton]

Originally posted by rivierascarlet:

Originally posted by Saint Skeleton:

but why did Anya have to tell Jimmy he was the father?

Like what does that mean, what was the developer trying to tell us?

Originally posted by rivierascarlet:

I think viewing what happened between the characters on a trivial level, though they are real people with their own real thoughts, isn’t going to help us get to the bottom of the debate,
We have to think about why the writer would choose to write that…

I think the point that Anya told Jimmy is the whole meaning of the game: Curly did nothing. We play Curly in this scene, and we are left totally in the dark about the fact that Jimmy knows. Curly walking in on that chaos and then us as players finding out that Jimmy crashed the ship from an alternative point of view brings in an intense psychological aspect, which is the plot twist we experience. Up until this point, we think it is Curly who crashed the ship; it’s at this point we find out that Jim is the bad guy.

This brings a whole other level to the fact that Curly did nothing to be responsible for Jimmy and protect the crew’s safety, which is the overarching metaphor; Curly laid there suffering post-crash as a result of his lack of action prior to the crash, he didn’t tell Jimmy or have a talk with him, he didn’t redirect the ship or anything else that could have prevented or at least fixed Jimmy's “mistakes” (I say “mistakes” lightly because SA is not just a “mistake” by the assailant just like crashing the ship wasn’t a “mistake” as Jimmy calls it all in the end).

The protagonist in this story, in a big way, is Curly; why else would we play through him prior to the crash? Because we, as players, suffered for him post-crash which is the whole point of the game, we couldn’t play as Curly post-crash or make our own decision to tell Jimmy pre-crash because the motif of the game is that Curly didn't take responsibility so the metaphor is that Curly was incapacitated as a result of his lack of action. This is why it’s not a “would have” or “could have” happened decision game; we play this game as explicit witnesses of the explicit decisions/actions of all the characters.

The plot twist changes the whole dynamics of the characters, up until that scene where Anya tells Curly she told Jimmy that she’s pregnant, we think Jimmy is just a troubled man with the weight of a captain's responsibilities dumped on him, maybe it is as though we think maybe Anya and him could have “just had a fling” because up until that point, we view Jimmy the way in which Jimmy views himself, and then this is when we as players start the piece everything together in the plot on our own, thus the reason we play as Jimmy is to watch the way in which he views himself as hard done by when in reality every other character is hard done by, and he never takes responsibility for HIS actions; instead he still thinks he's the "responsible" one.

I think the reason we play as Curly is that we are at that point in time sitting at Curly's point of view (at least if we consider the story in a linear fashion). We see things from Curly's perspective; we don’t know what kind of monster we’ve just been giving a shot and playing for.

The debate of whether our worst moments define us within the dialogue really ties into why the characters did what they did. Playing as Jimmy shows what it’s like inside the mind of a perpetrator who is ignorant to the fact he's done wrong; playing as Curly (and watching Curly post-crash) shows us what it’s like inside the mind of an enabler before and after taking responsibility for their own ignorance. Anya, the victim as a consequence of everyone else around her, is caught up in the middle of all this, thus helplessly taking her own life. Swansea, the hopeless addict, a representation of anger and denial, drinking the problems away (not taking responsibility), and Daisuke, the apprentice, not experienced, not knowing what to do and not having any responsibility to do anything anyway (even if he knew what to do).

I believe that there’s a little bit of each character in all of us, and the whole “our worst moment don’t define us” kinda sums it all up in the sense that none of the characters could be idealised for their actions and choices... no one was the saviour and it begs the question of whether our choices made under pressure really do define us and then asks; which one are you going to choose to be when ♥♥♥♥ hits the fan:

- the ignorant perpetrator
- the irresponsible enabler
- The consequential and helpless victim
- The hopeless angry addict
- The inexperienced, untrained apprentice

I think the takeaway message of Mouthwashing is really to look a lot deeper into ourselves and think about what character we were playing in real life since it was just a game, and people don’t easily fit into such polarised narratives or boxes. What is your perception of a character in this story that "would have" or "could have" fixed everything and saved everyone... be it. Not to get cheesy, but yeah, you are the protagonist in your own story and don’t be a Jimmy, a Curly, an Anya, a Swansea, or a Daisuke
...fight for what you think is right, take responsibility and ensure the safety of others and, most importantly, the people among your "crew".

I like alot of what you say ... but if a character does something just to put the plot in a certain place rather than having their "character" motivate them ... then the action was contrived, and to have the entire consequences of the plot and a whole pillar motif revolve around such a contrivance is so hard to believe

I really hope that the reason Anya told Jimmy she was pregnant with his child was not simply because she had to for the plot to advance, because given what so many have asserted that is what im being asked to believe

the Devs wrote in one of the Q&As they had to shorten the game and rewrite some, so im crossing my fingers they put alot of thought into motivation

[Saint Skeleton]

"Was there anything that the team wanted to include/planned for Mouthwashing that got scrapped and you wish you could have kept?"
"We wanted a larger area of the ship (such as the sleeping quarters) to be accessible in the pre-crash sections but there weren't enough gameplay or narrative reasons to justify creating the extra assets and level area to make it happen."

from the Devs 2nd Q&A, doesnt mean anything for sure of course

[naetyo]

The rape seems like pure speculation. I got no major hints at it besides Anyas fear of being pregnant by him

[The Call That Saved Gimnasia]

The scene between Anya and Curly pre-accident where they are staring into the moon gives it away.
"why does the infirmary have a lock but not the crew quarters?"
All the baby/fetus horror realted stuff stems more from Jimmy knowing that the pregnancy is hard evidence of what he did to Anya than the usual "being afraid of becoming a parent".
The whole "take responsability" is about Jimmy to stop beating around the bush and come to terms to what he did to her, instead of the typical "take responsability because you are going to be father"
But the game shows on multiple ocassion he doesn't care at all about her in the slightest.
Also Anya wanting the revolver for protection or at least deny Jimmy access to it wouldn't really make sense if the baby's conception was consensual.