Shiver Nymph, Evade, and Game Debilitating Bugs.

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

This would also apply to the Str 2 evading creature but it's most severe with the Shiver Nymph because she can be drawn in the Highlands.

The general rule in the game is that evade allows you to avoid whatever you use it on AND CONTINUE ON.

Thus if you use evade on the Sentinel you can cross the bridge. You use invisibility on a Dragon you can pick up what's behind it. But these two cards seem to block you from proceeding further which seems wrong. It's a particular nightmare when, as has happened to me three times now, the Shiver Nymph ends up on Eagle King and just blocks the square.

I think the rule needs to be altered so that if the Shiver Nymph (or the little Str creature) evades you then you continue down the stack of cards on the square or to the square itself. If you land on either on the Eagle King or the Lord of Darkness the card should automatically move to the entrance to the Highlands/ Dungeon respectively.

As it is cards that should be no more than a minor irritant (or useful foothold if you know the next card is going to be bad and want to avoid it) are having game impairing qualities out of synch with their status.

S.x.

[vidal22]

they changed both ekor and shivering nymph with last update-and i agree, the current working of these two cards is totally wrong-and especially with the shivering nymph on the highlands-it can end up making the highlands totally useless if it reaches the end. They need to put them back the way they used to be-i they evade, you should be able to encounter the next card.

So, yes-i totally agree with you

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

Originally posted by vidal22:

they changed both ekor and shivering nymph with last update-and i agree, the current working of these two cards is totally wrong-and especially with the shivering nymph on the highlands-it can end up making the highlands totally useless if it reaches the end. They need to put them back the way they used to be-i they evade, you should be able to encounter the next card.

So, yes-i totally agree with you

Thanks vida

S.x.

[ChaoticOne]

I partly agree and disagree with you:
I agree that not encountering a trapped card is a BUG.
I do not agree you should be able to draw more cards cards if a card evades you.

General Steps When Moving onto "Draw Cards" Spaces

1. CHOSE ENCOUNTER: if there is no character on the space to encounter, you must encounter the space
   
2. DRAW CARDS: if the space is not at its limit, draw cards as appropriate for region (City: if count < 3 draw 1; elsewhere: if count < limit, draw up to limit), adjusting for Followers, Objects, Special abilities, etc.
   
3. ENCOUNTER CARDS: in numerical order, until turn ends. if a card relocates and more cards remain, encounter them. If no more cards remain, end of turn

BUG Report: Flight or Fight, not Evade

Allowing these two creature to Evade characters when they cannot flee is a BUG.

Neither the "Ekor" nor the "Shivering Nymph" say ANYTHING about evading. They state:
"...if your <attribute> is higher than 2, the <creature> will flee 1 space clockwise instead of fighting you. Otherwise, it will remain here until it is killed."

The "Otherwise" applies to both the Attribute test AND the movement test. If both are not satisfied, the creature must fight.

The general process for ENCOUNTER CARD is:

1. Perform Condition Test(s):
   
   • Is <attribute> is greater than 2?
     
   • Is <movement> permitted?
2. Perform Conditional Action: If [Attribute>2]=True AND [Movement Permitted]=True THEN relocate card
   
3. Perform Default Action: Otherwise, Engage card

I.E, if it cannot flee, it MUST fight.

Developers:There are two potential fixes:

• Creatures cannot flee: Characters are permitted to engage trapped creatures.
  
• Creatures continue fleeing: allow fleeing creatures to continue moving (e.g., catching a ride with the Eagle King or Lord of Darkness ala Grim Reaper

No New Cards

Once at ENCOUNTER SPACE step #3 above, you cannot go back to step #2. Thus, if a card relocates (e.g., rolling to determine where the Ghost appears, or creatures fleeing a character) you do not get to draw more cards.

[vidal22]

Originally posted by ChaoticOne:

I partly agree and disagree with you:
I agree that not encountering a trapped card is a BUG.
I do not agree you should be able to draw more cards cards if a card evades you.

General Steps When Moving onto "Draw Cards" Spaces

1. CHOSE ENCOUNTER: if there is no character on the space to encounter, you must encounter the space
   
2. DRAW CARDS: if the space is not at its limit, draw cards as appropriate for region (City: if count < 3 draw 1; elsewhere: if count < limit, draw up to limit), adjusting for Followers, Objects, Special abilities, etc.
   
3. ENCOUNTER CARDS: in numerical order, until turn ends. if a card relocates and more cards remain, encounter them. If no more cards remain, end of turn

BUG Report: Flight or Fight, not Evade

Allowing these two creature to Evade characters when they cannot flee is a BUG.

Neither the "Ekor" nor the "Shivering Nymph" say ANYTHING about evading. They state:
"...if your <attribute> is higher than 2, the <creature> will flee 1 space clockwise instead of fighting you. Otherwise, it will remain here until it is killed."

The "Otherwise" applies to both the Attribute test AND the movement test. If both are not satisfied, the creature must fight.

The general process for ENCOUNTER CARD is:

1. Perform Condition Test(s):
   
   • Is <attribute> is greater than 2?
     
   • Is <movement> permitted?
2. Perform Conditional Action: If [Attribute>2]=True AND [Movement Permitted]=True THEN relocate card
   
3. Perform Default Action: Otherwise, Engage card

I.E, if it cannot flee, it MUST fight.

Developers:There are two potential fixes:

• Creatures cannot flee: Characters are permitted to engage trapped creatures.
  
• Creatures continue fleeing: allow fleeing creatures to continue moving (e.g., catching a ride with the Eagle King or Lord of Darkness ala Grim Reaper

No New Cards

Once at ENCOUNTER SPACE step #3 above, you cannot go back to step #2. Thus, if a card relocates (e.g., rolling to determine where the Ghost appears, or creatures fleeing a character) you do not get to draw more cards.

i agree-you shouldn't draw new cards but i disagree that after the monster flees one turn-that you can not encounter the space below it-if there other cards there or the space itself. That is the point that i have a problem with. I have encountered the ekor in the hidden valley-with a craft enemy and a place. Ekor fled. I was unable to encounter the craft enemy or the place.
Also-i have had two games where the shivering nymph reached the highland boss space-and at that point you could no longer encounter the eagle king. If a monster flees-you should then encounter the rest of the space. That used to occur until the last patch. That change i totally disagree with.
Also-i enjoy using red riding hood to build up my character. I do understand that i can drop this follower-but if i can handle it-i like using it. However, if ekor or shivering nymph then gets drawn-in that region, red riding hood drags them over and i am unable to encounter any space in that region unless i discard the red riding hood. I also totally disagree with this.

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

Originally posted by vidal22:

Originally posted by ChaoticOne:

I partly agree and disagree with you:
I agree that not encountering a trapped card is a BUG.
I do not agree you should be able to draw more cards cards if a card evades you.

General Steps When Moving onto "Draw Cards" Spaces

1. CHOSE ENCOUNTER: if there is no character on the space to encounter, you must encounter the space
   
2. DRAW CARDS: if the space is not at its limit, draw cards as appropriate for region (City: if count < 3 draw 1; elsewhere: if count < limit, draw up to limit), adjusting for Followers, Objects, Special abilities, etc.
   
3. ENCOUNTER CARDS: in numerical order, until turn ends. if a card relocates and more cards remain, encounter them. If no more cards remain, end of turn

BUG Report: Flight or Fight, not Evade

Allowing these two creature to Evade characters when they cannot flee is a BUG.

Neither the "Ekor" nor the "Shivering Nymph" say ANYTHING about evading. They state:
"...if your <attribute> is higher than 2, the <creature> will flee 1 space clockwise instead of fighting you. Otherwise, it will remain here until it is killed."

The "Otherwise" applies to both the Attribute test AND the movement test. If both are not satisfied, the creature must fight.

The general process for ENCOUNTER CARD is:

1. Perform Condition Test(s):
   
   • Is <attribute> is greater than 2?
     
   • Is <movement> permitted?
2. Perform Conditional Action: If [Attribute>2]=True AND [Movement Permitted]=True THEN relocate card
   
3. Perform Default Action: Otherwise, Engage card

I.E, if it cannot flee, it MUST fight.

Developers:There are two potential fixes:

• Creatures cannot flee: Characters are permitted to engage trapped creatures.
  
• Creatures continue fleeing: allow fleeing creatures to continue moving (e.g., catching a ride with the Eagle King or Lord of Darkness ala Grim Reaper

No New Cards

Once at ENCOUNTER SPACE step #3 above, you cannot go back to step #2. Thus, if a card relocates (e.g., rolling to determine where the Ghost appears, or creatures fleeing a character) you do not get to draw more cards.

i agree-you shouldn't draw new cards but i disagree that after the monster flees one turn-that you can not encounter the space below it-if there other cards there or the space itself. That is the point that i have a problem with. I have encountered the ekor in the hidden valley-with a craft enemy and a place. Ekor fled. I was unable to encounter the craft enemy or the place.
Also-i have had two games where the shivering nymph reached the highland boss space-and at that point you could no longer encounter the eagle king. If a monster flees-you should then encounter the rest of the space. That used to occur until the last patch. That change i totally disagree with.
Also-i enjoy using red riding hood to build up my character. I do understand that i can drop this follower-but if i can handle it-i like using it. However, if ekor or shivering nymph then gets drawn-in that region, red riding hood drags them over and i am unable to encounter any space in that region unless i discard the red riding hood. I also totally disagree with this.

What vida said basically. My issue wasn't drawing a new card to replace the fleeing Shiver Nymph or Ekor, it was not being able to encounter those already there. I'm happy with either of Chaotic One's solutions for the Eagle King (where it definitely is possible) and the Lord of Darkness (might not be) so: -

1) Creature can't flee and must fight.
2) Eagle King or LoD deposits them at start of Highlands/Dungeon respectively.

S.x.

[ChaoticOne]

I agreee with you. This is a long standing BUG in the timing of evaluating the outcome of encounters with enemies (#2 and #3 cards).

The problem is the mis-application of the 4ed flowchart test "did you evade or defeat all <same-numbered> enemies on the space" before proceeding to the next higher-numbered group of cards (e.g., proceeding from 2 to 3+ or proceeding from 3 to 4+).

The implementation incorrectly performs that test against the group of similarly-numbered Enemy cards (e.g, 2) that existed BEFORE the encounter, instead of performing that test on the cards remaining AFTER the encounter. If the timing of the test were corrected, the ONLY time an ENEMY card would remain on the space AFTER being encountered, would be if:

• Character/Enemy Evaded Combat (.e.g, card rules, objects, spells, special abilities preventing character from attacking enemy or enemy from attacking character - Goblin Shaman, Minstrel, Necromancer, Ninja, Ogre Chieftain, Tinkerer, etc.)
  
• Character failed to Defeat Enemy (i.e., Stand-Off or Character Lost)

That is consistent with the intent of the flowchart rule.

Correcting the timing to perform the test against cards remaining AFTER the encounter would account for non-combat activities that occur during the encounter, like:

• enemy Changing to other card type (e.g., Black Unicorn, Clockwork Cabinet, Feral Pet, FireMane, Sneak Thief, automated Constructs, Charmed Animals, Dominated Monsters, Enthralled Spirits, SpellboundGoblins/Hobgoblins, etc.)
  
• combat Evaded (by Character or Enemy)
  
• enemy Destroyed (e.g., by Cross, by Wand of Dragonfire),
  
• enemy Relocating (e.g., Ekor, Ghost, Shivering Nymph, etc.)

This timing correction would also more accurately represent what happens on the physical board game as well. Although, it fails to address the BUG that prevents attacking a frightened enemy that has nowhere to run.

NOTE: Unless handling of Charmed Animals has changed, correcting this timing BUG woul also address a pet peeve of mine related to mistreating the Minstrel Charming Animals as unsuccessful combat.

[Marcin Raelian]

Maybe not logical rule but I see new tactic only now.

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

Still an issue.

S.x.