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Yeah, this is not fair. It's a flaw of the game board. Real humans would likely call it a day and say "ok you've won". Or choose to not abuse that mechanism.
But right now, your game is screwed
To solve that flaw, in your next games, you can do either of:
- Activating "No More Lives" house rule. This prevents healing once someone reaches Crown of Command.
- Choosing another Revealed Ending than the base one. Like "Race to the Crown".
- Play with "Sudden Death": after a set amount of rounds, the game ends (but it can strip you out of your victory)
You're right, some sort of "forfeit" option would be nice, like humans would actually do. But it is what it is. The added irony of a poltergeist on an exorcist triggering this will not soon leave my memory though :p
I think the "no more lives" option is the most fair and least harsh to prevent things like this in the future. Thanks for the tip! :-)
Ha ha :p yeah, Talisman is full of those hilarious moments you remember.
No more lives is good for avoiding this comeback, but has it's own flaws. It triggers as soon as someone ends on the Crown of Command, but not all endings actually force the player to stay on the CoC, and others can kill the player through means other than fighting other characters.
Combine this with the Dragonspire, from the Dragon expansion that allows a character to jump to the CoC if there's enough dragon tokens in the region, and you can often see a game in which an AI ends up suiciding on the CoC, triggering No More Lives for everyone, whether they are ready to win the game or not.
So you really should compare the value of using No More Lives with that, and whether or not you want the possibility to steal the win from a character on the CoC. For example, the Runesword allows you to gain lives when killing enemies, and therefore "mopping up" enemies for lives to make a run to the Crown when someone is already on it is just one of the many strategies that NML prevents...
My personal stance is that I don't use NML in single player games, as it's easy to end the game and consider it a win anyway if the uncommon scenario of poltergeist and healing spot comes up...
Triggering it too early if someone accidentelly or intentiionally enters the crown is also pretty interesting and gives you new opportunities/strategies.
The problem is that I don't see NML as a "must have", because players should be able to identify when the AI gets into an endless loop, and can end the game. Therefore, there's no real issue of sitting on the CoC for hours UNLESS there's at least SOME hope for victory.
The requirements for an Endless Loop are for a player to have almost total control over their movement, so they can reliably repeat their move between two or more spaces, and have a means of regaining two or more lives endlessly, such as the Healer or the Chapel (for Good characters). A secondary requirement for the Endless Loop is that you must be playing with an Ending that doesn't allow you to move from the CoC.
It's worth noting that the more expansions you have, the less likely the Endless Loop becomes, because the number of alternatives increases. Not all endings don't allow you to move from the CoC, and many have alternative win/loss conditions that make the Endless Loop redundant.
Whilst NML can change the strategies for a game, it almost inevitably results in turning the end condition to Race to the Crown, so if NML is a "must have" then why not just play Race to the Crown instead? It's just as effective, and the AI is just as able to inadvertantly trigger that ending, winning the game outright, with the Dragon expansion, for example.
Bear in mind that the circumstances that would trigger NML, also trigger No More Respawns, making for a very deadly game that a single roll can end for you. Without NML, you would still be affected by NMR, so life conservation becomes a must. Many multiplayer games use No Respawns if there's more than a few players just to shorten the game, at the risk that a bad roll can remove a player from the game.
The biggest issue with the Endless Loop isn't the actual Loop itself. It's the fact that the player cannot forfeit the game and trigger the ending XP sequence. That can mean that the entire game ends up feeling like a waste of time, unless you still enjoyed the game.
Until then, it's often easier to look out for when Endless Loops are likely to occur, and do what you can to mitigate them. Keep an eye out of those Good characters to see if they get the Poltergeist. Don't be afraid to Destruct the Healer on sight if it's not helpful to you. Teleport characters in to deadly situations. Mesmerise the Poltergeist if you have to!
Ultimately, dealing with the Endless Loop is just another lesson from Talisman. Using NML is a preference, not a must have...
Besides, the AI in an Endless Loop isn't actually chosen as the winner. It's like an Ancient Beast getting an Apex condition or exhausting the Omen deck. The Player loses, yes, but that doesn't mean the AI wins. The AI hasn't gotten to the Crown, nor is it the last player standing, so it hasn't won.
But it doesn't matter if the AI DID count as winning. It makes no difference to the AI if it wins or loses, it's just there to play, and the Endless Loop exists because the AI doesn't get tired, and it isn't programmed to win - i.e. make a bid for the Crown, just to survive, i.e. not to lose.
Has anyone ever seen what the AI with the Poltergeist does in an Endless Loop if it DOESN'T need to heal? It's a shame that you can't CHOOSE whether to use the Crown of Command, because if you don't use the Crown, then the triggers for the Endless Loop would change, and the AI might be tempted to move further away from it's healing spot, giving you more time to kill it before it can heal.
What about Healing the AI player before they make that move to their free healing spot? Would the AI still move to it, or would they seek out a better option if possible?
The Endless Loop exists because the AI is programmed to put a lot of emphasis on gaining and healing Lives, typically more than most players would, in fact. The AI doesn't PLAN for an Endless Loop. It's not that sophisticated.
I'm discussing here an edge case to figure out if it makes sense to you or not that an entity doing virtually nothing in the entire game would be granted the win. For me it doesn't make sense
You were talking that Talisman DE should implement "forfeiting". In my book when there are two players and the first one forfeits, then the second one wins. That's how forfeiting works in any game. Or did you mean something different?
It matters whether the AI wins or not because it's one of the biggest incentives of the game to try to win, regardless of any XP progression. The game displaying "you have won" is the difference between getting your dopamine dose or saying "damn I didn't win". Though winning isn't the only reason people play a game, it's clearly a nice bonus they are looking forward to, and when they feel like they should have gotten the win, it leads to frustration. That's why it matters whether or not the AI wins.
Why should we try to break the AI loop when it could be avoided in the game code? How does it make sense from a pure gameplay point of view to heal an opponent (except for spell cycling)? And what if you don't have any spell? You are talking of a very particular thing you can try, to circumvent the game flaw. But it's not a general solution.
The AI doesn't plan for an endless loop that's true. And no one implied that. However it doesn't change the fact that the AI does get in endless loops sometimes, and that new players get into those situations with the AI. That's the core issue we are discussing right now: AIs getting into endless loops and what does it entail for the player experience. You suggested the player should forfeit - I argued otherwise. Nobody talked of whether or not the AI actively seeks out endless loops, nor does it matter in the conversation (or at least you haven't said why it matters to mention that)
The AI sees healing as the best course of action when it is not at maximum Lives, and therefore as soon as it gets hurt, it will return for healing. This is why it might make sense to cast Healing on an AI opponent in an Endless Loop - you are encouraging the AI to move further away from the source of healing it is relying on, meaning it takes longer to get back.
The best solution would be for the AI to realise it is in an Endless Loop and to break out of it itself. But right now, the devs have managed to break one of the most stable aspects of the AI, so I am certainly not convinced that they can get the AI to break out of an Endless Loop without screwing something up.
That means the next best thing - the player gets to forfeit, because the player is the only entity controlling the game itself. The AI doesn't forfeit - if it did, we wouldn't have the issue of the Endless Loop in the first place.
I would suggest that a forfeit should count as a loss for the player, even if they think they deserved the win.
The thing is, DE has NEVER been a zero-sum game. There are entire endings where everyone loses, so the idea that if the player is forced to forfeit, the other player wins doesn't hold here. If you can handle being Reapered in a No Respawn match, you can handle losing to an Endless Loop.
The argument that the AI wins if you forfeit, would imply that the AI wins if you lose because of an Omen loss or an Ancient Beast gets an Apex condition. It says more about your mental view of the world than anything else.
In any situation where it is possible for everyone to lose, you cannot infer that losing the game means another player has won. This is the very basis of a non-zero-sum game. You don't have to defeat your opponents to win, unless that is the ending.
Yes, you COULD use NML and completely avoid the Endless Loop. But for me, the Endless Loop occurs in one single ending, and requires a certain set up of cards and circumstances, which doesn't occur all the time. Since I play with Random Endings, NML isn't a must have. Instead, if I get the standard Crown of Command ending, then I am just wary that the Endless Loop might occur, and do what I can to prevent it from happening.
In general, if you end up with an Endless Loop, you have taken too long, and this just reinforces that DE is mostly a race. The Crown and Sceptre ending is basically the standard ending with NML activated, on turbo.
I think, in general, that the Endless Loop is a bit like the idea that the RNG cheats. You play enough times, it's going to come up. You remember the few times the AI essentially cheated you out of a win. At the end of the day, this is all that matters - the AI prevented you from winning.
If you can't take losing to DE, perhaps you shouldn't play?
Whatever the case, the Endless Loop isn't a bug. It's a legit strategy to avoid losing the game.
IIRC, there this thing in Chess where if you make the same move three times in a row, you forfeit the game. It sometimes happens when there aren't enough pieces on the board to secure a mate.
This is probably the best answer in this situation. If the AI (or player) does the Endless Loop three or more times in a row. Failing that, allowing the game to switch to a sudden death victory might be an alternative.
But for now, chalk the Endless Loop up to a loss, and move on. It's ONE game, and the novice player should be more wary about the AI creating an Endless Loop.
I said tthat nobody like to sit on the crown for hours and didnt speak about endless loops.
There is no need for endless loops to sit on the crown and dying of boredom while all the other players can still enjoy the game.
Also its not just about sitting on the crown, its also useful for other endings which would be otherwise just pointless without NML enabled.
Its enough that someone has something that he can use for constantly healing for example like physician or scales of balance or an ability or itmes / followers who allows you to teleport/move constantly to healing spots.
Its just not fun at all for all other players if an ending triggers and you know already who will win it tho with NML enabled it could be still an interesting ending.
Im playing only MP so i dont have to deal with endless loops anyway.
I also dont know any serious player who starts a game without NML enabled for the reasons i mentioned above. Its just a no brainer for any expirienced player to avoid situations like that cuz the most important is to make the game enjoyable.
Of course you dont have to necessarily enable NML if you choose for example only one ending like 'The Hunt' or something else where playing without NML has no negative effect.
Most endings don't force the player to sit on the Crown for hours. It's only the Crown of Command ending and the Endless Loop that has the risk of doing this. Thus, whether you specifically mentioned Endless Loops or not, you are speaking about Endless Loops.
As a "serious" player who plays predominantly single player, I play without NML enabled. I don't see the need for it, because the risk of an Endless Loop is quite small, once you know what to look out for. I also play with Random Endings, so most of my games aren't at risk of Endless Loops anyway.
I've played some long endings, sure, but very few actual Endless Loops, and it seems that most of the longer endings occur when you are only playing the Base Game. This is because the smaller deck means more chance of the AI cycling to the main culprit - the Poltergeist. Even then, it really depends WHERE the AI picks up the Poltergeist and the state of the board at the time.
Generally, most forms of healing aren't free - and thus, in most cases, you can generally wear down opponents to win. They will typically run out of Gold and other sources of Healing after a while.
As EPs added more ways to gain Healing, and form Endless Loops, not only has the chance of getting the Crown of Command, the only ending I know to form an Endless Loop, decreased, but they also added more ways to disrupt an Endless Loop.
If you don't find endings fun, that's what Race to the Crown is for.
But in general, you learn to look out for Endless Loops, and how to try and prevent them from occurring. It's all part of learning the game.
In my experience, without NML enabled, you are more likely to see players challenge someone who is already on the Crown. It's rare, but it does happen, and in my experience, it happens more frequently than an Endless Loop. So, for personal preference, I don't have NML enabled, because I think that the the risk of an Endless Loop isn't enough to compensate for losing out on seeing those secondary challenges to the Crown.
Plus, the Endless Loop doesn't just stop me from winning. I've seen it occur a few times when an AI is on the Crown too. The AI doesn't know how to prevent Endless Loops AT ALL.
Once, I sped the game up until the game ended once I was defeated, and the AI fell into an Endless Loop. I was feeling vindictive for being defeated by an evil RNG, so I left it running for three hours with the sound off as I watched a movie. It was like that scene from Wargames, except the AI didn't learn anything. It's stupid, it's petty, but it made me chuckle - so did I really lose in the end?
Under certain conditions, Battle Royale can also lead to stalls on crown of command: for example Sorceress with high craft vs Warrior with high strength, if Warrior has Runesword, and Sorceress has Bag of Gold + Physician. Every turn, one of them wins. If Sorceress take the Runesword, Warrior takes it back the next turn, and vice versa. The only way for this to end would be to target each other's lives, but that doesn't work because they heal 1 for free anyway.
It is also possible to get the "miss 1 turn to heal 2 lives" within woodlands, outer or middle region, and stall this way too.
If you're speaking of what happens in the majority of the game, and this entire discussion is a bit of a moot point since endless loops do not happen that often, and yet they still do.
Besides, it's not just about the AI, Legolas and I just told you examples of infinite healing combos that do not involve Poltergeist - and there are also endings like I wrote that can induce an infinite fighting at the crown of command (Battle Royale and Werewolf). So it's not just "it only happens if you play with only the base game". That kind of thing can happen if you play with all expansions.
So: if you were to play against a real player. Not an AI. You go to Crown of Command, and that player pulls an endless loop on you. What would you do? Do you forfeit and say "I forfeit, but it does not mean that you won", like you wrote earlier? Is it a win for you, a win for them, or a stalemate?