Killing an enemy doesn`t mean you defeated him !

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

So this was discussed during the beta, but the beta was an endless report of bugs, so only a few people contributed to the whole thread, i mean really reading 20+ posts per day is a lot of time, and if you want to contribute, you need to read every response, what is hard if you have a life outside of Talisman.

Ok thats said, now i started a thread Killing doesn`t mean you defead your enemey

So i don`t agree to this change, it was one of the few changes that was released with the bugfest Woodland.

Don`t get me wrong i love Talisman, i`m a long time player, but i think changes like that shouldn`t be the right of the beta players only, i mean we have cards like Misfortune, that is bugged and nobody from Nomad care about it.

But if you kill an enemy, then you don`t defead him, you only won the battle.

This sounds strange, this is strange, and i`m prohably not the only one.

[potterman28wxcv]

I totally agree with you. There is nothing in the rulebook that talks about it ; but if you kill someone, surely you defeated him?

EDIT: changed my mind, see my other post below

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

Originally posted by potterman28wxcv:

I totally agree with you. There is nothing in the rulebook that talks about it ; but if you kill someone, surely you defeated him?

That`s an odd question, if you wouldn`t defeated him, you wouldn`t have won the battle.

If i kill my enemy on the battlefield, i should have won the war.

[Lombardic De Valter]

i think they are on holidays now..

Netherless, where is the problem on it? I suppose defeat is win the battle. Kill is kill it via other ways like the spell that kills a monster automatically and wont let you keep it as a trophy, as you are no worthy to have it. U used a spell to kill and avoid the glorious battle to defeat it. Thats how I think of it.
So killing does not means defeat it
Edit - When you defeat it, you kill it - you get trophy
When you kill it without battle it, you kill it , you dont defeat it, no trophy (or other reward of winning a battle)

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

Originally posted by Lombardic De Valter:

i think they are on holidays now..

Netherless, where is the problem on it? I suppose defeat is win the battle. Kill is kill it via other ways like the spell that kills a monster automatically and wont let you keep it as a trophy, as you are no worthy to have it. U used a spell to kill and avoid the glorious battle to defeat it. Thats how I think of it.
So killing does not means defeat it

Actually Spell Shatter allows you to kill the enemy and to take the card as trophy.

And again, when you kill your enemy, you defeated him, what else would it be?

[Lombardic De Valter]

Defeat has to do with battle -
Think of you dueling an opponent. You can duel him (thus battle him, defeating him in battle)
or..
You can poison, backstab, pay others to kill him etc..
You kill him but you havent defeated him in a honorable battle

[Lombardic De Valter]

Whatever tricky way you find to kill him instead facing him face to face, is not honorable

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

Originally posted by Lombardic De Valter:

Defeat has to do with battle -
Think of you dueling an opponent. You can duel him (thus battle him, defeating him in battle)
or..
You can poison, backstab, pay others to kill him etc..
You kill him but you havent defeated him in a honorable battle

I kill Vervandi with the Soul Shatter spell, i should earn the card like i would earn a trophy, yet the card is just discarded, and you don`t get the Destiny, because you didn`t defeated the card.

Thats an issue, and not what the rules are saying.

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

Originally posted by Lombardic De Valter:

Whatever tricky way you find to kill him instead facing him face to face, is not honorable

Thats not the point, Nomad, decided how the rules should be changed during a closed beta, and now we have to deal with it.

[potterman28wxcv]

Originally posted by Lombardic De Valter:

Whatever tricky way you find to kill him instead facing him face to face, is not honorable

Reading again what Finger of Death says :

Cast on any character or creature who you are about to engage in battle.
If cast on a character, he loses 2 lives. If cast on a creature, it is killed.
Enemies killed may be taken as trophies.

You cannot defeat the creature in battle if the creature is killed before the battle even begins. Semantically speaking, a defeat is a term that only occurs during a battle or psychic battle. Here, when you cast the spell, the creature is killed before you actually start the battle ; so you didn't defeat him.

Where the UI is misleading, is that the spell glows while you are in battle screen. To be very compliant with the rules, there should be a moment before battle screen begins.

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

Originally posted by potterman28wxcv:

Originally posted by Lombardic De Valter:

Whatever tricky way you find to kill him instead facing him face to face, is not honorable

Reading again what Finger of Death says :

Cast on any character or creature who you are about to engage in battle.
If cast on a character, he loses 2 lives. If cast on a creature, it is killed.
Enemies killed may be taken as trophies.

You cannot defeat the creature in battle if the creature is killed before the battle even begins. So I can understand the developer standpoint.

Understand maybe, accept no, this open the door for various other things, and when i think that cards like Misforune are still breaking the game after all this years, i can`t agree with it.

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

And to make it more important if you kill the Lord of Darkness or the Eagle King with Soul Shatter or the Finger of Death, what would happen then?

This is not a small rule change, this is a big impact for the game, since you can combi kill cards in so much ways now.

[Lombardic De Valter]

Gilga seems we have different opinions about this and we cant agree. The most accurate resolve would be to have the reply from the original designer of the game.
Otherwise if its so vague and we have no way to learn what designer meant, there should be a poll and whatever the active community decides

[Gilga ™ |Yonaguni|]

Originally posted by Lombardic De Valter:

Gilga seems we have different opinions about this and we cant agree. The most accurate resolve would be to have the reply from the original designer of the game.
Otherwise if its so vague and we have no way to learn what designer meant, there should be a poll and whatever the active community decides

Sure that would help, but the point is this change was introduced by the beta team, don`t get me wrong they are playing it like a destiny, but in the end we "normal users" have to live with it.

And thats the point i disagree, and since the devs are saying, no thats what we decided, then the only way to talk about it, is a public thread.

[potterman28wxcv]

Originally posted by Gilga ™:

And to make it more important if you kill the Lord of Darkness or the Eagle King with Soul Shatter or the Finger of Death, what would happen then?

This is not a small rule change, this is a big impact for the game, since you can combi kill cards in so much ways now.

For the Eagle King and all other corner bosses, the rules actually state that you get the rewards by killing them. It used to not be the case in the Digital Edition since Woodland release, but I actually made a thread about that and convinced the devs to change it. So the devs do listen :)

See the relevant thread : https://steamcommunity.com/app/247000/discussions/0/1697175413687345457/

Originally posted by potterman28wxcv:

Page 3 of Highland rule book

The four Relic Cards are powerful artefacts characters may obtain by killing the Eagle King in the Highland’s Eyrie (see “Fighting the Eagle King” on page 8).

Page 3 of Dungeon rule book

The 10 Treasure Cards are Magic Objects characters may obtain by killing the Lord of Darkness in the Dungeon’s Treasure Chamber (see “Fighting the Lord of Darkness” on page 7).