Players need to look through the discard pile

[Don Julio]

After the advent of the Firelands, you really need to look through the discard pile eg. when using the Devout Blacksmith - that is, you need to look through it _before_ you actually use the Blacksmith (to see if there is something in the discard pile you want). Please implement this feature.

[sanityismyvanity]

Oprindeligt skrevet af deornwulf:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Psyringe:

I would actually appreciate having the texts of those cards. Contrary to what you might think, I'm very happy with Sam Bailey's response, because a) it provides clarification of a designer's intention (which is rare), b) it is in favor of the preferred way of play of the majority of people who expressed an opinion here (so it makes more people happy than a different answer), and c) I hoped that it might take the sting out of a discussion that I regarded as pointless a good while ago.

I _do_ maintain that rules disagreements are best resolved by looking at objective facts rather than resorting to speculation, and I think if free discard pile browsing is supposed to be permitted in Talisman, than it should be added to the rules, just as - for example - Magic the Gathering did. In Magic, this rule was not part of the original ruleset either, but it got added when the designers realized that the issue needed to be addressed. (There are also examples for the opposite - the original Munchkin rules did not address discard pile browsing either, but when the designers realized that some players felt permitted to do so, they added a rule that explicitly disallowed it.)

If you believe that this position makes me ineligible for receiving the information that you claim to have, then I'll obviously have to live without that information, though. ;)

If you have the Woodlands Expansion, look at the Red Cap. Due to inconsistancy in the text of the cards, it could be read that a Light Bound Character is killed upon drawing the card as there is nothing stating that the effect occurs after battle while some other Woodlands Cards give specific instructions as to what is to occur and when. There is another enemy card that requires drawing an Adventure Card but it is not clear whether it should be a card from the expansion or the main deck...unlike some other cards which are very specific as to what deck cards are drawn from.

There is also the matter of the Scribe and Temporal Warp in the hands of the Warlock. That combination would result in a neverending turn for the Warlock. By the direct interpretation of the FFG rules, there is absolutely nothing forbidding this yet many players choose to disallow or even remove the Scribe from the game. There is nothing in the rules that allows for the exclusion of specific individual cards, only rules pertaining to how parts of an expansion may be utilized.

There is the matter of the ♥♥♥♥♥ and what happens to events she draws and ignores. Nothing in the FFG rules clarifies what should happen to an event card she draws and chooses to be unaffected by. If I recall correctly, the computer game has the event card remain on the space while the board game is nebulous on this issue.

What about Fireland Tokens and missed turns? Is a missed turn supposed to be a total skip of the player, meaning that character's turn never begins therefore there is no end to the turn during which the character takes damage or should a missed turn be ruled as beginning and ending immediately, resulting in the character taking damage from the Fireland Token because the turn was ended in a space with the token?

Understand this, the game is rife with inconsistancies and issues that are completely open to interpretation, with no real precedent on which to base a decision. There are times in which a consensus must be reached and a general rule of board games is that unless an action is specifically forbidden by the rules, that action should be allowed if it does not result in a disruption of the game or provide a single player with an advantage over all other players. Allowing all players to examine the discard pile is fair and equal treatment.

Certainly there are cards that are difficult to implement correctly, but the examples cited aren't ambiguous at all.

1) Red Cap - The card itself states "He seeks blood to stain his horrid red hat. If you are defeated: (Fatebound effects)"

It clearly states the Fatebound effects apply if you are defeated here.

2) Drawing an Adventure card while in the Woodlands - From pg. 5 of the Woodlands rules "When a card is encountered in the Woodland Region and has instructions or effects that refer to Adventure Cards, it affects Woodland Cards instead."

3) The original Scribe + Temporal Warp infinite turns combo - This combo cannot actually create infinite turns, as the Scribe Follower has the following text: "If you have 2 or more Spells, you may keep a Spell after you cast it and discard 1 of your other Spells in its place.
You can only do this once per round."

It cannot be used more than once per Round, so while the Warlock could use it for 3 turns per Round, they cannot gain more than that from that combo. In a 2 player game they could do an infinite loop of Time Steal, but that is because they would complete a Round each time it was used.

4) ♥♥♥♥♥ (and Astrolabe) + Events - The ♥♥♥♥♥ does not ignore the Event, the text states "Whenever an Event is drawn, you may use your power of foretelling and choose to be unaffected by the Event, although all other characters are affected as normal."

This means the Event, if Encountered by the ♥♥♥♥♥, still happens. They can simply choose to not be affected should they wish to avoid its effects. It would only ever remain on the board to be Encountered later if they somehow avoided Encountering it in the first place, or the Event itself has special text stating it remains on the board after the initial Encounter. There is a bug in digital version here where sometimes the Encountered Event remains on the space, but that is incorrect when it happens. And technically, the ♥♥♥♥♥ should make the choice whether to use foretelling to avoid the Event effects at the time of drawing it, not when Encountering it. But that distinction really has no impact on the game, so that bug isn't worth fixing.

5) Missing a turn + Fireland Tokens - The 4th Ed rules on pg. 16 states" Any instructions that result in the loss of a turn by the character encountering them ends the character’s turn immediately. This counts as a missed turn for that character if there are other cards to be encountered; otherwise, he misses his next turn instead."

I don't personally see a reason for this passage to be describing "a missed turn still has a beginning and end of the turn missed." If that was the intention, the above passage should likely state something like "otherwise, when his next turn begins, the turn immediately ends instead."

In relation to Fireland Tokens then, if a turn has begun and ended, no matter how short it was, they suffer the loss of a Life. If no turn has happened at all, then no Life is lost.

Edit - 6) Original Gremlin - On pg. 16 of the 4th Ed. rules, it has a definition of "using" a card: "When a character implements the ability of a card’s text box, he is considered to be
using the card. Using cards is optional, and a character may always choose when to use a card he has."

While something like the Horns of Power grants +1 Strength and +1 Craft "all of the time", it actually does not by the book. Anytime you wanted to have the stat gain granted by the Horns of Power, you would then choose to use the Object. At that time, you would then need to roll for the Gremlin. The digital version streamlines this and simplified it, but as a result needed to alter the way the Gremlin worked for sake of convenience.

[Deornwulf]

I stand corrected on the Red Cap, I would look for the specific card that is not clear on how the fatebound effect is resolved but I am too tired to do so. Thank you for the clarification on the Adventure Card vs Woodland Card issue.

The Scribe issue was regarding Time Steal and not Temperal Warp and it was in a 2 player game where that issue came up.

The missed turns issue was not of my creation but based on an argument I witnessed at a gaming convention where the Leprechaun player tried used his hoard of gold to train for 10 turns while everyone else burned and was told he would lose a life for every turn he trained.

The Gremlin is an overly complicated card that bogs the tabletop game down if drawn by a character with multiple objects.

Events trigger a change in night and day when drawn, implying that the ♥♥♥♥♥ must first encounter the Event before deciding to be unaffected by it. Your interpretation would indicate that the Night/Day phase would not change for any character drawing an event and then choosing to discard it to encounter a replacement card...something on which the boardgame is unclear.

My whole point was to make the case that the game has several grey areas that require interpretation and rational discussion to adjudicate.

Sorry for the poor examples above.

[sanityismyvanity]

Oprindeligt skrevet af deornwulf:

Events trigger a change in night and day when drawn, implying that the ♥♥♥♥♥ must first encounter the Event before deciding to be unaffected by it. Your interpretation would indicate that the Night/Day phase would not change for any character drawing an event and then choosing to discard it to encounter a replacement card...something on which the boardgame is unclear.

I don't follow this part at all. Day/Night and the ♥♥♥♥♥ ability are both based on the Event being drawn, not encountered. There isn't any conflict here.

[Ragic]

Horns of power is a persistent effect. You can not choose to not take its effects. So I don't see how the card is 'used'.

[sanityismyvanity]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ragic:

Horns of power is a persistent effect. You can not choose to not take its effects. So I don't see how the card is 'used'.

That is false. You can always choose when to use something unless otherwise directed, like Cursed cards.

[Ragic]

well i could drop it, but otherwise how do i not take the +1 strength and craft?

[sanityismyvanity]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Ragic:

well i could drop it, but otherwise how do i not take the +1 strength and craft?

In the digital version, for the sake of simplicity and to maintain a healthy pace, things like the Horns of Power are "always on". This is different to how the actual physical game rules work, which creates some issues when it comes to "using" cards.

In the physical version, when you enter a battle, for instance, you count up your Strength from Objects, Followers, etc. In doing so, you are in effect declaring what you are using at that time, often without realizing that is what you are doing. The Horns of Power only grant their stat bonus optionally, when you say they are to be used. They do not apply "all the time" as the digital version does. This is why they changed the effect of the Gremlin, because it would've required a complete reworking of the system they have installed. Not to mention how aggravating it would be to roll for Objects that often.

The original rules are quite clear however, in that all cards are to be used optionally, unless otherwise directly instructed to do so.

[Deornwulf]

I want to apologize to Psyringe and Sanity for being a bit rude and for making this more about trying to prove someone wrong rather than come to a consensus that we may have to just agree to disagree on opposing viewpoints on this side. Sometimes, I fall into the trap of spoiling for a fight instead of just letting things be when it all doesn't matter in the long run.

I think we all can agree that the best solution would be to make allowing the viewing of the discard pile an optional house rule so that players could make the choice rather than it being a default setting, one way or the other...

...after all of the bugs from the Firelands Expansion are corrected.

[Psyringe]

Oprindeligt skrevet af deornwulf:

I want to apologize to Psyringe and Sanity

No need, imho. The debate wasn't particularly constructive before you joined in, and you weren't any more rude than I or sjgf were.

If anything, I'm the one having to apologize because I asked you to provide the examples that you talked about, you did the work to provide them, and I didn't address them (lots of work to do thiese days). I did read them with interest, though I have to admit I'm not sure what they are meant to demonstrate specifically. It seemed to me that you were trying to show me that rules can be unclear or ambiguous, but I think we have no disagreement there (regardless of whether your particular examples proved that point or not). With games like Talisman, which consist of a basic ruleset and a gazillion of exceptions, it's probably not humanly feasible to keep things clear and well-defined all the time.

We may disagree on whether a particular point is clear or not, or what's the best method to handle ambiguities (I ouzlined my view at the bottom of post #36)), but we don't disagree on the notion that ambiguities exist.

[sanityismyvanity]

Oprindeligt skrevet af deornwulf:

I want to apologize to Psyringe and Sanity for being a bit rude and for making this more about trying to prove someone wrong rather than come to a consensus that we may have to just agree to disagree on opposing viewpoints on this side. Sometimes, I fall into the trap of spoiling for a fight instead of just letting things be when it all doesn't matter in the long run.

I think we all can agree that the best solution would be to make allowing the viewing of the discard pile an optional house rule so that players could make the choice rather than it being a default setting, one way or the other...

...after all of the bugs from the Firelands Expansion are corrected.

I never got any sense of rudeness from your posts, so no worries :)

[Ashcarr]

Since you will at some point always know what went into the discard pile, being able to browse them would in fact be a legal action. Unless you expect players to keep a pen and paper around to write things down. It's not hidden knowledge.

Now, say the discard pile was placed face down and there were cards that players never had knowledge of entering the discard pile, yes, clearly players shouldn't be allowed to look through it. Since that is not the case, browsing discard piles is not an illegal action. Arguing otherwise is stupid.

[Ragic]

i guess that answers my other question since its possible to burn cards others cant see.

[Deornwulf]

If players are not going to be able to look through the discard pile, the Log needs to be fixed though so players will know what cards have been discarded or burned at least when the action occurs as that would be something players would be able to see on the tabletop board game, especially since discards are supposed to be placed on the discard pile in the order that they are drawn if not burned.

[The Worst]

Oprindeligt skrevet af deornwulf:

If players are not going to be able to look through the discard pile, the Log needs to be fixed though so players will know what cards have been discarded or burned at least when the action occurs as that would be something players would be able to see on the tabletop board game, especially since discards are supposed to be placed on the discard pile in the order that they are drawn if not burned.

I wonder about colour-coding certain game actions in the log; red names for burned cards, green for cast spells, black for discarded, blue for stolem (via Mesmerism, Acquisition, class abilities, et cetera), purple for destroyed (Destruction, monsters through combat, and such), or something along those lines. Might make logs quicker to browse at any rate, and should be a pretty quick/easy upgrade.

[sjgf]

sanityismyvanity, on the 9th Feb, at 3:19pm in this discussion, you wrote with reference to the ♥♥♥♥♥: " And technically, the ♥♥♥♥♥ should make the choice whether to use foretelling to avoid the Event effects at the time of drawing it, not when Encountering it. But that distinction really has no impact on the game, so that bug isn't worth fixing."

I disagree with you that the difference between using the Foretelling Ability to avoid the effects of an Event at the time of drawing it or at the time of encountering it has no impact upon the game. I think that It has a big impact upon the game, and thus it is a bug that is definitely in need of fixing, which is why I posted a complaint about this a few months ago or so.

Avoiding being affected by an Event at the time of that Event being drawn is a one time decision that occurs only at the time of the Event being drawn and not thereafter. Thus if the ♥♥♥♥♥ decides at the moment that an Event is drawn that it will allow that Event to affect it then it cannot later change its mind and decide that the Event will not affect it anymore, and vica versa. This point relates to those Events that remain in play after they have been drawn, like the Tumbling Boulder, or the Blizzard for example, or an Event that was drawn but for some reason was not then encountered.

However if the ♥♥♥♥♥ were to be able to decide, in relation to each Event, that it will be affected by that Event or not each and everytime it encountered that Event (and I am referring here to Events like the Tumbling Boulder that remain in the game and can be repeatedly encountered) then this more flexible ability would allow the ♥♥♥♥♥ greater latitude in how such Events could affect it during the game and as a result this could be exploited in a way that only being able to avoid being affected by such an Event at the moment of it being drawn could not.

Also when the ♥♥♥♥♥ is forced to decide whether it will be affected by an Event that has just been drawn when the ♥♥♥♥♥ did not actually encounter that Event for some reason the ♥♥♥♥♥ has to, in effect, predict the future as to how that Event might affect it in the future, whereas if the ♥♥♥♥♥ had the flexibility to decide to be affected by an Event each and every time it encountered an Event then it would not have to try to predict the future.

My observations above also apply to any character that uses the Astrolabe to replicate the ♥♥♥♥♥'s Foretelling Ability.