A (VERY BRIEF) History on Diablo-clones and Roguelikes...

[iBazly]

PLEASE NOTE BEFORE READING THIS: I love Roguelikes and Diablo-clones. They are my favourite genres/subgenres of games. That is why I wrote this, because I care. Caring about something shouldn't be considered stupid, so if you are one of the people who instantly posted "Why do you care about this?" or if you ARE planning on posting that: you're a jerk, don't bother. I love the genre, have my whole life, get over it.

So, it seems a lot of people don't understand where this game came from. Y'all keep referring to it either as the game that inspired Torchlight, or even worse, a "ripoff" of Torchlight.

I don't have a lot of time for this post, so I'll make this quick: this game fits into a very interesting subgenre of RPG that many people call "Diablo-clones". This is because it is very heavily inspired by Blizzard's amazing game Diablo (though it is worth mentioning that Diablo 2 really caused the series and the genre's popularity to take off). What's interesting about this though, is that Diablo itself is actually inspired by the Roguelike subgenre of RPGs, which started back in the 80s with "Beneath Apple Manor", and the game that gave the genre it's name: "Rogue".

Roguelikes can all be very different (for example, Dungeons of Dredmor, Risk of Rain, Spelunky, Towns, Paranautical Activity, Rogue Legacy and even Minecraft are all, in a way, "Roguelikes" - to name a few), but they generally all feature random or procedural level generation, in-depth worlds with MANY ways to die, and a general theme of ascending or descending (climbing a tower, descending a dungeon, mining into the depths of the earth, etc.).

Diablo-clones refer specifically to games that most resemble Blizzard's classic, and have become so prominent that they really have warranted their own name. Even just here on Steam there are many: Torchlight, Path of Exile, Din's Curse, and Titan Quest, to name a few. At the time of Diablo's release, Roguelikes had a very simplar formula: you play one character, alone in a dungeon or tower of some sort, and must reach either the highest or lowest levels to acquire some sort of item, then often you needed to then get back out. Gameplay was usually turn based (when you acted, everything else then took an action). Graphically roguelikes were also very simple, one of the most graphically complex Roguelikes of the time being Fatal Labyrinth for the Sega Genesis (also on Steam!)

Diablo was unique in that it took the basic concept of Roguelikes, and brought it into the world of 3D, and instead of turn based gameplay, made it real time, drawing inspiration form the Action RPG subgenre, which at the time wasn't very big. Blizzard also drew heavily from the Hack 'n' Slash genre, so instead of having a single character who may end up facing AT MOST 9 enemies at once, Diablo gave characters powers that allowed for them to fight massive hordes of monsters, as well as implementing multiplayer to make the battles feel even bigger.

Ultimately my point is this: FATE is most definitely a part of this genre, and in a big way it implemented a lot of new features that have become important parts of the genre. The pet system has become fairly common in Diablo-clones now, and the graphical style of the game was most definitely an inspiration for Torchlight. But Torchlight ALSO draws inspiration from OTHER games in the genre, and so it is certainly not correct to say that FATE "directly" inspired it. It is even more incorrect to say that FATE is a rip off of Torchlight, as Fate came out first.

That's about all I have time to say right now - but if you are new to Diablo-clones or Roguelikes, or even if you are fairly experienced with them, and want to learn more about the genre or perhaps find some new games in both genres to play (I've played A LOT of Roguelikes and Diablo-clones, they're my favourite genre of games) feel free to message me! Would love to discuss it with you and help you explore these wonderful games!

EDIT: As user moriarty4 pointed out, it is also worth noting that Torchlight was created by a team of people who were involvedi n making Diablo, FATE, and another Diablo clone called Mythos. Obviously because of this, there are many direct connections between these games. My point was not to say that Torchlight and FATE are not connected in any way - but simply to say that both are part of two subgenres of RPGs that have a complex history, and that it is doing a great disservice to FATE by simply considering it "another Torchlight".

EDIT 2: I CAN'T BELIEVE I EVEN NEED TO ADD A SECOND "EDIT" TO THIS. For those of you who are unable to read (which is apparently many people here), I would like to emphasize that I am NOT saying that Torchlight is NOT inspired by FATE. I AM SAYING THAT IT IS JUST AS INSPIRED BY DIABLO, and is part of two genres with a history that MATTERS to some people, me being one of them.

TL;DR version: The order of release for games being heavily discussed here is: Diablo - Fate - Torchlight, so Fate is not a "ripoff" of Torchlight. Both games are part of the "Diablo-clone" subgenre of "Roguelikes" which itself is a subgenre of RPG. The genre has a complicated history, so saying Torchlight is a "Fate-clone" is incorrect. They're part of the ame subgenre. If you want to learn more, or want any game suggestions for exploring either genre, feel free to message me! I would happy to suggest MANY games to you.

[Reginald Skarr]

Beautiful.

[trollusk]

This is a good summary of the history of roguelikes and Diablo-likes. However the relationship between FATE and Torchlight is more intimate than you suggest. Travis Baldree is the author of FATE, and after making that game he was hired by Flagship Studios to work on an MMO called Mythos. Also working there were several ex-employees of Blizzard North (the division responsible for Diablo). Flagship went under, and Travis and the Blizzard people went on to form Runic Games, with Travis as president. Runic Games made Torchlight.

So in short, Travis Baldree made both games. It's pretty obvious if you play them that Torchlight is "FATE 2.0". The pet system, fishing, infinitely deep dungeon, and many other aspects are virtually identical in the two games.

[iBazly]

While it is true that creators of FATE were invovled in creating Torchlight, the team behind Torchlight was ALSO comprised of people who worked on Diablo, and Mythos (another Diablo-clone, which although it was release later than all of the games we're discussing, was being worked on BEFORE). I'm not saying that there is no relationship between the two, just that it is not simply just based on FATE.

In fact, I would disagree with your assertion that it is FATE 2.0: while the pet system was definitely implemented in FATE, fishing is not something that is unique to FATE and Torchlight (there are hundreds of games with fishing :P), and the implementation of an infinitely deep dungeon is something that has existed in other Roguelikes before any of the games we are discussing.

My point was that Torchlight is as much connected to Diablo and Mythos as it is to FATE, and to draw a direct line between them would be incorrect, and does a great disservice to both genres.

[Sigfruid]

FATE came first, not Torchlight. It was heavily based on Diablo's style of gameplay and loot, while adding many unique features such and fishing and the pet system.

However, the relationship of FATE to Diablo is nothing like the relationship to FATE and Torchlight. Having played FATE first, you will soon realize that there are many many things that seem all too similar in Torchlight. Much too many.


Everything from the sound effects, potion icons, pet system, art style, UI, minimap icons, quest icons, NPC placement is almost identical to FATE. It was almost like the developers took the game code from FATE, touched it up a bit, and released it as a new brand.

If you have played Torchlight and would like to buy FATE, just keep in mind that you've played FATE 2 and now you're playing FATE 1.

[That Wun Wabbit]

true dat,
just Torchlight 2 has very specific dungeon levels though. Torchlight 1 had waaaay more i think

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από moriarty4:

This is a good summary of the history of roguelikes and Diablo-likes. However the relationship between FATE and Torchlight is more intimate than you suggest. Travis Baldree is the author of FATE, and after making that game he was hired by Flagship Studios to work on an MMO called Mythos. Also working there were several ex-employees of Blizzard North (the division responsible for Diablo). Flagship went under, and Travis and the Blizzard people went on to form Runic Games, with Travis as president. Runic Games made Torchlight.

So in short, Travis Baldree made both games. It's pretty obvious if you play them that Torchlight is "FATE 2.0". The pet system, fishing, infinitely deep dungeon, and many other aspects are virtually identical in the two games.

[rizaloo.kulianatosaro]

Travis Baldree did Fate ALL on his own, btw and In 5 months, reportedly. And I definitely agree with Torchlight feeling like Fate 2.0 and that's definitely not a bad thing :)

[eqalidan]

unless towns drastically changed, its more of a dwarf fortress game than a rougelike
sure they share elements but the creating a base of operations is something roguelikes dont have
sure at some point dwarf fortress did get a roguelike part put into the game but i still dont consider it a rouge like.

[Nilla Wafers]

I think anyone born in the early 80s and prior find this topic hilarious - especially since it needed a novel.

Some game is always based off some game. some games have same devs / coders / publishers. teh end. why there is need of debate or why it actually matters is beyond me apparently, to understand. All I know is - Steam is full of Noob Gamers - Period.

12-20 yr old age group has no sense of gaming history / gameplay. They were spawned in a world of gimme's and wants.

Fate was WildTangents answer to FIlling a void in their online gaming setup. teh end. buy mah coins ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.


Edit *** FYI - this game was everywhere for free - once fate2 was released. Lets buy it.

[Ibitato]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από Nilla Wafers:

I think anyone born in the early 80s and prior find this topic hilarious - especially since it needed a novel.

Some game is always based off some game. some games have same devs / coders / publishers. teh end. why there is need of debate or why it actually matters is beyond me apparently, to understand. All I know is - Steam is full of Noob Gamers - Period.

12-20 yr old age group has no sense of gaming history / gameplay. They were spawned in a world of gimme's and wants.

Fate was WildTangents answer to FIlling a void in their online gaming setup. teh end. buy mah coins ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.


Edit *** FYI - this game was everywhere for free - once fate2 was released. Lets buy it.

I am about to turn 40, and been gaming since the CPM/80 operating system.

Your attitude does contribute to nothing.

Thanks to ppl investing time in researching gaming history and writing "novels",
some of those "noobs" will have the chance to better understand where all started and even more important, to embrace the knowledge and curiosity needed to play and enjoy any (good) game despite it's age, genre and / or graphics.

Many young people don't enjoy "old" games just because they don't have the "view" or "context"
that is needed to play and position the game on the correct context.

Id rather spend my time reading these discussions and hoping the educational effort some people do, pays off than just b*1*c*h because people are "n00bs" or whatever other negative adjective you may want to use.

As for paying for free or not free games, as for any other thing in life, people are entitled to
their right to buy whatever they want , even if it is a shoe box filled with p00p, and knowing it.

So please people, continue to enlighten the community with information, as long as
it is solid and has been contrasted

[-={0$1k}=- Isobar]

I played Fate when it came out, and just couldn't get into it mostly due to the lack of multiplayer. These types of games just turn stale quickly with no multiplayer. If they were able to add in some form of MP to Fate or even Torchlight 1, I would gladly rebuy them, because the core game with the infinite dungeons were amazing.

Another game people should really check out is Din's Curse. Small team, Diablo like with a lot of small but awesome features.

[Ibitato]

Αναρτήθηκε αρχικά από -={0$1k}=- Isobar:

I played Fate when it came out, and just couldn't get into it mostly due to the lack of multiplayer. These types of games just turn stale quickly with no multiplayer. If they were able to add in some form of MP to Fate or even Torchlight 1, I would gladly rebuy them, because the core game with the infinite dungeons were amazing.

Another game people should really check out is Din's Curse. Small team, Diablo like with a lot of small but awesome features.

I am a huge fan of Din's Curse, Depths of Peril and Drox Operative
great titles on my book, that don't need fancy stuff to be enjoyable

[AJ, Lord of Chaos]

Nice lesson on gaming history! Are you sure you didn't have much time for the post? ;)

[JB™]

I don't get why people use the term "Diablo clone" anyway. They all come under the umbrella of the genre aRPG, or Isometric Hack'n'Slash. All games are copied or inspired by something else, it would only be the mis-informed who would term something a clone that clearly isn't if they can be bothered to check out what the word means in the first place.

Is every single first person shooter a DOOM clone? Go on the forums of whatever the latest inception of Call of Duty is now and call your post "DOOM Clone?", sit back and see just how ill concieved using the word is when it comes to defining a genre.

[heron]

Travis and team created Fate in 2005 for Wildtangent.
Travis and team went to Flagship Studios to help create an mmo (beta) called Mythos.
Flagship Studios was known for the game Hellgate London (Lead Creator of Diablo 1 and 2 David Brevik along with Erich Schaefer and Max Schaefer)(composer Matt Uelmen).
Flagship Studio ran into financial problems and sank along with Mythos.

Fast forward today, they created Torchlight with (Travis and the Schaefer Brothers along with composer Matt Uelmen).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship_Studios

[Nilla Wafers]

I personally think my attitude was just fine.

why are you buying this game when it was free 6-7 years ago?

why are we reading about game clone history and why is it being debated. i find it hilarious.
especially when people squabble over something so meaningless. thus - Noob Gamers - thus meaning NEW - yet they feel they know all.

and now here we are.

oh no. i said my opinion.