Golden Roulette is way to Powerfull

[Neomare]

Turns out if you have a game balanced around Tower Cost and Power Being Balanced (which you should ) an item which can make Towers Up to at least 40% cheaper ( maybe even more ? ) will just break this balance.

I understand this relic is a risk reward kind of thing but it only really works on the start when you have 3 towers and can really struggle to get going if unlucky and all 3 of them get more expensive on stage 1.

But once you have 6, 7, 8 towers it is very common one of them will be so cheap you can just spam it and it will outperform your sinergies, combos, bonuses by just shear numbers alone of you being able to place more of them.


So yea.. i played a character which i do not particulary like. On heroic. So I did not plan to win, not really. Also Without all the meta unlocks or any real plan and strategy and once i got Golden Roulette offered i grabed it and from that point on the game was trivial. I would just place as many of my cheapest towers as i could get and this would make me way more powerfull that I should be.

I think.

Also the combos and synergies still do apply as well.


How to fix this?

I think getting there exists a range in which the golden roulette would operate that it would be usefull but not powerfull enough

Not sure what this range is.

Maybe 80% to 120% would be beter than now?


In any case being able to spam out 10 cost towears for 6 is really crazy and it happens to me very often when i have multiple.


Good luck!


Oh great game btw, love it! :D

[Dschinghis Pan]

Let me try breaking down the math.
If I can buy N many towers, if the price drops by 50%, I can buy 2*N towers. If the price increase by 50% I can buy N/1.5 = 2*N/3 -> 2/3 * N towers, or 33% less.
So if I build completly random towers, I get about 13% more towers.

So despite being 50% up or down, the result is significantly in the players favor already.
On top of that, having more towers unlocked further increases the chance of at least one being on a discount. Resulting in me almost guarenteed to have a discount.
To top that up even more, apart from the very first round, I could also spent the money on upgrades instead if I only get bad rolls.

Given it's much more beneficial to the player AND there are some workarounds even with bad rolls, I would think instead of reducing the impact, it would be interesting adding more risk.
So make it symmetrical around 110% for example and prices range 60%-160%, or 50%-170%.

Because the only REAL risk this offers in the end is creating a situation where your synergies get more expensive because if you need 2+ towers for it, you are more likely to get delayed or have to pay increased cost.

[Neomare]

Originally posted by Dschinghis Pan:

Let me try breaking down the math.
If I can buy N many towers, if the price drops by 50%, I can buy 2*N towers. If the price increase by 50% I can buy N/1.5 = 2*N/3 -> 2/3 * N towers, or 33% less.
So if I build completly random towers, I get about 13% more towers.

So despite being 50% up or down, the result is significantly in the players favor already.
On top of that, having more towers unlocked further increases the chance of at least one being on a discount. Resulting in me almost guarenteed to have a discount.
To top that up even more, apart from the very first round, I could also spent the money on upgrades instead if I only get bad rolls.

Given it's much more beneficial to the player AND there are some workarounds even with bad rolls, I would think instead of reducing the impact, it would be interesting adding more risk.
So make it symmetrical around 110% for example and prices range 60%-160%, or 50%-170%.

Because the only REAL risk this offers in the end is creating a situation where your synergies get more expensive because if you need 2+ towers for it, you are more likely to get delayed or have to pay increased cost.

Well yea.. I just gave numbers as examples. It does not have to be symetrical. it could be between 80% and 150% for example and it would still be usable.

Problem right now is that like you say as well once you have plenty of towers one of them is very often super cheap and you do not really need synergy if you can now place down almost double the amount.


I just smashed mystic forest on heroic by just mostly out an army of dice towers when the game decided they should cost 6. I also had a flamethrower and poison tower so when those were cheap I used those.. its almsot always that something is super cheap and synergy or not the cost efficiency just sweeps everything else away.

I think the lower boundary is a bit to generous. 70% or 80% would work the best and the top one i do not really care. I almost never build them if they are increased price. As long as it is not to high because then by rng you would really rarely get them discounted at all.


But yea the strongest artifact right now in my opinion :D and at the same time some others could really use some love.



P.S. The lowest I saw on dice towers was 6 so i believe the lowest they can go is 60% but maybe its just rng, shrugs.. if it can go even lower that is even crazier.

[Dschinghis Pan]

Just had a run with chaos-transmutation and golden roulette and thus build a lot of basic towers. At one point they were indeed priced at 5 - depending on rounding you either need to hit 54% or lower - which is a 1 in 25 chance OR flat 50% (if it always rounds up) - meaning a 1 in 100 chance.

I think it given the workarounds alone this will always be one of the strongest artifacts simply because it offers a flat increase in power regardless of loadout. And if that's now enough, if you start a map with bad rolls, you can quit and continue to restart the map and get new roles.

Closest thing that comes to mind is either the poison-tooth (10% more damage to poisoned enemies) or the "all elements" thing (never used it, don't know the percentages).
But both have conditions and still offer less than even the random-towerbuilding with the wheel.

[Neomare]

Originally posted by Dschinghis Pan:

Just had a run with chaos-transmutation and golden roulette and thus build a lot of basic towers. At one point they were indeed priced at 5 - depending on rounding you either need to hit 54% or lower - which is a 1 in 25 chance OR flat 50% (if it always rounds up) - meaning a 1 in 100 chance.

I think it given the workarounds alone this will always be one of the strongest artifacts simply because it offers a flat increase in power regardless of loadout. And if that's now enough, if you start a map with bad rolls, you can quit and continue to restart the map and get new roles.

Closest thing that comes to mind is either the poison-tooth (10% more damage to poisoned enemies) or the "all elements" thing (never used it, don't know the percentages).
But both have conditions and still offer less than even the random-towerbuilding with the wheel.

yea all the other towers feel super underwhelming compared to the Golden Roulette.

Like 10% or so seams to be the staple and it often comes with a triggering condition.

Meanwhile 10% discount on a tower could be considered around 10% strenght increase. So Golden Roulette balanced at 90% to 110%? it is 50% to 150% right now and well... even if it rolles 70% or 80% it is already op but i see 50% and 60% at least once per map so yea...

it is not really a problem if it rolls badly on first wave or two since your fire source can usually take care of the first 2 waves.

Still though even if it does and even if it cant you just take the loses place a tower or 2 knowing it will all pay of with dividends in the upcoming waves :D.

[RefiCHL]

Yeah, the only reason Golden Roulette wasn't nerfed in the last patch is that people seem to be having fun with it (I mean, getting an earthquake tower at half price is broken but feels really good :P). Also, the merchant character is designed to make the game slightly easier (but a little too easy currently), so the plan now is probably make the Golden Roulette available only for the merchant, and add a weaker version (uh...silver roulette?) to the relic pool for the other characters.

[DB]

I haven't experimented with large tower pool and golden roulette yet. 100% going to tonight though if opportunity presents itself

EDIT - Been trialling it for an hour or so. Managed to fill probably 80%-100% of my walls with towers with this relic. Only upgraded towers on power tiles, outside of that, just filled the board with the cheapest towers. 100's of the things. Nothing has gotten anywhere close to the flame so far :/ Seems way more effective than planning and upgrading. just BUILD MOAR

Originally posted by Refic Games:

Yeah, the only reason Golden Roulette wasn't nerfed in the last patch is that people seem to be having fun with it (I mean, getting an earthquake tower at half price is broken but feels really good :P). Also, the merchant character is designed to make the game slightly easier (but a little too easy currently), so the plan now is probably make the Golden Roulette available only for the merchant, and add a weaker version (uh...silver roulette?) to the relic pool for the other characters.

Character exclusive sounds like a good idea. Balancing these games is such a mammoth task. Every roguelike has items or cards that are just amazing in any setup but it's great you recognise this with plans for the future, but let people have fun in the short term. Really great transparency and honesty. I can't wait to see what the future holds for the game.

Gutted you said it was too easy because outside of this run I've only won 2/8 runs haha. I'm shocking at the tetris aspect of the game.

[Flakstruk]

Alternatively, Merchant could just double the roulette effect

[0x90]

Originally posted by Refic Games:

Yeah, the only reason Golden Roulette wasn't nerfed in the last patch is that people seem to be having fun with it

I love it. If its getting nerfed I wouldn't use it anymore. And besides of that I also had moments where my favorite tower was in 7 of 8 rounds overpriced.

Why should it getting nerfed anyway? It's an item about luck. If you're lucky then you should feel lucky. I don't feel lucky to see a -10% discount at 1 of 8 rounds.

[Doc Savage]

Yay..!

People said stuff and now all the new people will get a game full of nerfs..!

What is wrong with having an OP thing..? You don't have to take it. I mean seriously. Some people have self discipline problems so everyone else can't have fun..?

Do the wise thing.... Make all the bonuses have a slider that you can add or subtract so everyone can just play and have fun and challenge themselves without anyone else declaring what easy, fun, hard or any of that stuff means.

The people who want difficulty can slide them all to zero and brag about winning anyway and the rest of us mere mortals can just relax and enjoy blowing some stuff up. There will even be that kid who sets them to 100 just to see the pretty colors...

Be the one game that really lets people be free to play how they want to. Not how a bunch of forum thinkers think it should be...like how it really should be. Free to make towers as OP or Under P as much as you want.

SO many games get ruined by handcuffs brought about by posts like these where everyone thinks they know some magic formula to fun. It always works for the select few. The rest of us go find another game. Please let this be the game I don't have to move on from because of fun ending limitations put in because a small, select sample group said stuff.

Just my 2 cents, 1/2 cent after taxes. YMMV.

Cheers..!

[$ilver $p0oN]

Originally posted by Doc Savage:

People said stuff and now all the new people will get a game full of nerfs..!

Or people will get a proper game that isn't crazy easy to beat. OP in games like this are "game breaking" since why would you want anything else, except the "OP" said item?

Giving feedback in an early game is why people put their game out before a 1.0 release.

I think this is all great feedback, and I love what the creator said. Golden roulette is absolutely too powerful since having a 9 gold tower while I have 150 gold, just spam the tower all over the place and it cannot be beaten.

Happy to see care for the game and nerfs where needed! Game is a blast but with no challenge comes no interest to come back to it.

[Doc Savage]

Only if you take the perk and the towers.... You don't have to take them. That's called a choice. Where you get to choose whether to challenge yourself or whether you just want to rip a run and have a little fun.

I like a game that's crazy to beat and crazy fun and lets me go a little overboard.

There is no right or wrong way here. No one is more correct.

It's FUN. It's a fun way to play for those of us who don't take life so seriously even our games have to be within precision tolerance or our world falls apart.

Leave it in for the people who don't think as you do, for they are many.

Make options to allow the difficulty, ease or any other idea of wrongness to be dialed out by the player themselves, not by somebody on the interwebs crying foul.

We already have 100 of the same game with the same rules and the same limitations and the same stupid carp with a different set of graphics because every game gets this treatment nowadays.

There is no wrong way to play. I don't care if you think it's OP or not. It's not your business how I enjoy my play time, and I would like a little OP now and again even if you think it isn't the way it should be.

Too many people worried about somebody having it too easy or enjoying themselves in an improper way. Just let people be and have their fun for cryin' out loud.

Cheers..!

[Dschinghis Pan]

Having an op item is ok, some items will always be better than others.
The issue is, it's just TO OP. Being able to double your tower output just doesn't compare to most other items adding at best 10% damage to all towers.

Technically the other items could also be buffed. But then in return enemies would also need a buff to keep them challenging...
Ot the game adds some higher difficulty or so, to test our skills and luck.

There are other options as well. But again, right now the roulette offers a bit to much bang for the buck.

[Flakstruk]

In your opinion. So don't choose it

[Doc Savage]

Again...

Don't choose it. Leave it be for those that like it.

Let the game have a slider so you can set that tower to 0% bonus anything if you want a challenge or to 100% of everything because you *don't*.

Not everyone wants a difficult, tactical, "oh mah stars that was really rough" experience.

I have always thought it right to have that one thing that will allow a mere mortal some chance at getting achievements and wins. That one perk or tower everyone knows is easy street. Some people need that help.

Nerf us out. It's cool. Make it so we can't enjoy anything. It's only customer base, who needs that..?

I don't care what anyone thinks about OP, under P, or any other kind of P. It's about having fun, and I have fun with that perk. And it isn't all roses when all your towers are 1.5 cost and you have to wait 4 rounds before you can afford the big guns. SOmetimes you never make it to them and you die...

For once, I'd really like to see a developer understand and implement a system where all bonus things can be adjusted to let the player be whatever they can be. They can make it more OP if they want. They can nerf it all if they want. It's their game.

Make it so people can nerf themselves instead of taking away something you can truly have some fun with from everyone else.

Please.

ANd thank you.

Cheers..!

[$ilver $p0oN]

Originally posted by Refic Games:

Also, the merchant character is designed to make the game slightly easier (but a little too easy currently),

I'll just leave this here. Look forward to the updated perk! Can't wait to play with it when it makes the game more fun and not trivial :)