[Deadfire ending spoilers] A few lore-related questions...

[Ereghor the Enigmatic]

As far as I understand, this one takes place after Deadfire instead of being set either in the past or between Pillars 1 and 2 as someone said at one point, so my questions are:

- how do they address the fact that the cycle of reincarnation the whole divine order relied on got leveled? Why are the gods still in (some kind of) power by the looks of things when Eothas' plan was specifically to free the kith from the divine influence and let them handle the world themselves?

- moreover, what about everyone effectively becoming a fampyr or having to rely on random chance when being born as the Wheel is no longer functional? And why would there still be godlikes if the gods have no direct way to influence the cycle of essence anymore, especially since there's a whole plot point about the mechanics of godlikehood in Deadfire and how they can be tampered with?

- do they treat any Deadfire ending as canon, or is it a mashup (I think I saw a Principi flag there somewhere, of all things), and what about the Watcher, who, depending on his/her race, might even still be alive and kicking?

- why are the Living Lands suddenly an amalgamation of colonial powers (seemingly?) working together instead of a contested land as they strive to get whatever resources they can as the world went to sh*t, and why is there luminous adra there? Why is luminous adra still around at all if the soul flow has been tampered with, and it was stated to exist only in Deadfire because of the proximity to Ukaizo / the Wheel's heart?

Asking as to confirm whether or not it matches with my head-canon at all - yes, I am that petty in that regard. If the game can't even keep its world straight (pun intended...), then it's even more of a skip for me, aside from everything else wrong with it.

[Senrigan]

I read somewhere that the developers said that changes would take a long time, perhaps even a generation or more

[AlyssiaG]

Finally, some lore discussion. Cheers mate!

I've finished Act 1 yesterday and can say the following:

- They do adress the Wheel ... sort of: The Living Lands is pretty remote and people are slow to accept change so you have plenty characters who will still wish you "a good next turning". But there are also instances of Characters referencing "the death of the gods" and "what Eothas did"

- The Watcher is mentioned: They are a known factor, people know their Fortress was destroyed and they went after Eothas. Aedyr does not know of what they did in PoE 1 (or at least, no one has mentioned it in Act 1). I get the feeling that the Envoy must've been sent during PoE 1 and just now arrived for the setup to make sense, but I might be mixing something up there.

- There are next to no Godlikes anymore. They vanished with their gods which makes your Character extra-peculiar. You can meet another Godlike in the first act, in a remote location, who will discuss the Gods with you. He confirms that the big events of PoE 1 and 2 are canon.

- However, the different factions aren't that well explained or explored. I have not found any confirmations regarding the events of the earlier games. As a player of PoE 1 and 2 you will have more Info than the game gives you.

- As for "divne influence", you might find that there's a big Snag in Eotha's Plan (it's actually a cool revelation, I don't want to spoil it. Find the other Godlike, and rebuild the totem in your camp!!!)

Have fun!

[mps]

I got through Act 3 and couldn't get myself to continue but above post is correct with addendum that it appears the godlike vanished since the gods are preparing for war (or something along those lines). Can't remember any talk about reincarnation cycle being disrupted, seems events in Deadfire aren't all that well understood yet (at least widely).

[archonsod]

I'll try to avoid too many spoilers.

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

- how do they address the fact that the cycle of reincarnation the whole divine order relied on got leveled?

It didn't. They refer to Eothas having 'given the wheel a thump', so presumably it was one of the endings where Eothas' attack on the wheel didn't entirely succeed.

And why would there still be godlikes if the gods have no direct way to influence the cycle of essence anymore, especially since there's a whole plot point about the mechanics of godlikehood in Deadfire and how they can be tampered with?

It's only around three years after Deadfire, presumably any godlike born before those events would still be living their natural lifespan unless of course something cut it short.
Of course something did happen to cut it short for many godlikes; they're now rare. Though you do meet another fairly early on (and of course the question of just who's godlike you are, what with the fungus features, is another main plot point early on). There's actually a fair bit you can draw from the description of what happened to the godlike, but it's mainly speculation at this point.

- do they treat any Deadfire ending as canon, or is it a mashup

It's ambiguous. As above, it's not clear the wheel was fully destroyed and if not which particular 'Eothas fails' scenario played out. Similarly the Valians have control of the luminous adra trade, but I don't think it confirms whether they took control of Ukaizo or who their director there was, only that Deadfire is the only region it's found in and it's incredibly rare and valuable.

- why are the Living Lands suddenly an amalgamation of colonial powers (seemingly?) working together instead of a contested land

It's not. Aedyr is the only colonial power (officially) present. The Living Lands is basically a haven for those fleeing their respective colonial powers, whether that's just looking for a new life or attempting to evade law and order. Naturally once there birds of a flock tend to gather together, so for example Thirdborn in Shatterscarp is predominantly, but not exclusively, Aumaua most are actually Rauatai deserters. It's much the same in Endless Step; it's mainly Valians, but that's largely because fellow animancers are less inclined to reach for the torches and pitchforks and more inclined to reach for the pen and notebook when you start meddling in things man was not meant to know.

why is there luminous adra there? Why is luminous adra still around at all if the soul flow has been tampered with

Answering that would lead into major spoiler territory, so let's just say that yes, there is a sensible reason and it's something of a core plot point :)

[Ereghor the Enigmatic]

Thanks for the answers, I guess it is a skip for me - the gameplay / writing seemed subpar already, and the lore is the final nail.

It's not. Aedyr is the only colonial power (officially) present. The Living Lands is basically a haven for those fleeing their respective colonial powers, whether that's just looking for a new life or attempting to evade law and order. Naturally once there birds of a flock tend to gather together, so for example Thirdborn in Shatterscarp is predominantly, but not exclusively, Aumaua most are actually Rauatai deserters. It's much the same in Endless Step; it's mainly Valians, but that's largely because fellow animancers are less inclined to reach for the torches and pitchforks and more inclined to reach for the pen and notebook when you start meddling in things man was not meant to know.

...even though the lore snippets in PoE1 and 2 stated that the Living Lands are the current hotbed of active colonization, with numerous settlements as well as a mention of Castol being demoted to running the operations there if you oust him in front of the VTC investors.

It didn't. They refer to Eothas having 'given the wheel a thump', so presumably it was one of the endings where Eothas' attack on the wheel didn't entirely succeed.

Given how Deadfire (and the PoE1 main game / White March finale) gave you every reason to be antagonistic towards the gods unless you were the new Leaden Key grandmaster or a particularly devout cleric RP-wise, going off of a less impactful outcome seems like taking the path of least resistance... That's why I was surprised with it actually taking place after the PoE games, as I remember a mention of it being a prequel - the development was anything but smooth, though.

Similarly the Valians have control of the luminous adra trade

Way to undermine anyone siding with Rauatai/Huana/Principi... I guess it's meant to be closer to the "wildcard" ending where the Deadfire remains locked in conflict, which is probably the worst one of all.

[Silvaren]

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

As far as I understand, this one takes place after Deadfire instead of being set either in the past or between Pillars 1 and 2 as someone said at one point, so my questions are:

Avowed takes place 3 years after Deadfire.

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

- how do they address the fact that the cycle of reincarnation the whole divine order relied on got leveled? Why are the gods still in (some kind of) power by the looks of things when Eothas' plan was specifically to free the kith from the divine influence and let them handle the world themselves?

The wheel is something what is happening on Eora from the very beginning. It was the nature order of essence flowing through adra. It was raw and unstable in its effects, so things like hollowborn and different diseases of the souls could occure. Engwithans builded machines on Ukaizo to stabilize reincarnation process. Since then the wheel had two components - metaphysical and physical. Eothas destoryed only physical part of the wheel, so it is still working but in less predictable and efficient way. This way Eothas wanted gods to extinct, to leave kiths for themself, because Rymrgand could no longer steals the essence to sustain the gods existence.

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

- moreover, what about everyone effectively becoming a fampyr or having to rely on random chance when being born as the Wheel is no longer functional? And why would there still be godlikes if the gods have no direct way to influence the cycle of essence anymore, especially since there's a whole plot point about the mechanics of godlikehood in Deadfire and how they can be tampered with?

I don't get what you mean by becoming a fampyr in this context. Engwithans created the gods, and the gods require essence from the wheel to sustain themself. Rymrgand was stealing some part of all the essence flowing through the wheel thanks to the machinery on Ukaizo. Godlikes were merely a batteries, a backup of power to consume if needed, if something (like the event from Deadfire's final) happened.

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

- do they treat any Deadfire ending as canon, or is it a mashup (I think I saw a Principi flag there somewhere, of all things), and what about the Watcher, who, depending on his/her race, might even still be alive and kicking?

The game doesn't tell what was the purpose of godlikes, but playing we learned that their mostly dissapeared. The events on Ukaizo are unclear. The common knowledge is that the island was found, but it's mystery what exactly happened ther. Many people heard rumors but don't believe them. So what exactly took place on Ukaizo is not specified in game.

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

- why are the Living Lands suddenly an amalgamation of colonial powers (seemingly?) working together instead of a contested land as they strive to get whatever resources they can as the world went to sh*t, and why is there luminous adra there? Why is luminous adra still around at all if the soul flow has been tampered with, and it was stated to exist only in Deadfire because of the proximity to Ukaizo / the Wheel's heart?

Living Lands is like Australia. Savage frontier, a place, were convicted criminals were send and the place where go people who want to disappear. Factions aren't working together. There are tensions, everyone want to take as much as possible from Living Lands, taimed it get advantage. It's a new unclaimed continent basically. Huge powers like Aedyr Empire want to conquere it.

[Ereghor the Enigmatic]

Originally posted by Silvaren:

The wheel is something what is happening on Eora from the very beginning. It was the nature order of essence flowing through adra. It was raw and unstable in its effects, so things like hollowborn and different diseases of the souls could occure. Engwithans builded machines on Ukaizo to stabilize reincarnation process. Since then the wheel had two components - metaphysical and physical. Eothas destoryed only physical part of the wheel, so it is still working but in less predictable and efficient way. This way Eothas wanted gods to extinct, to leave kiths for themself, because Rymrgand could no longer steals the essence to sustain the gods existence.

What muddles the waters is that PoE1 and 2 kind of contradict one another on whether the Wheel is entirely artificial in nature or whether it (in the form of the adra pillars, at least) was there from the beginning and the Engwithans have just added onto it, however, PoE2's ending and themes (2/3 DLCs included) heavily imply that without it the cycle will be damaged to a point where the kith either figure out a solution or deal with the global equivalent of the hollowborn crisis - Ydwin outright states that she "separated her soul from the Wheel", and she's a fampyr, who has to maintain herself by feeding on the essence of others. That was my takeaway, at least, because otherwise Eothas' plan would have nothing but positives and there's no reason to stop him if the destruction of the machines in Ukaizo is relatively insignificant compared to what it could be.

Same with the nature of the gods - PoE1 only states that the Engwithans created them while PoE2 opens saying that they've made themselves into the gods, which is plausible but still a retcon at the end of the day. The writing already kinda deteriorated once, and it's a common trend nowadays to keep doing so (I don't think Josh Sawyer was actually involved with the game apart from consultation, too?).

[Silvaren]

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

Originally posted by Silvaren:

The wheel is something what is happening on Eora from the very beginning. It was the nature order of essence flowing through adra. It was raw and unstable in its effects, so things like hollowborn and different diseases of the souls could occure. Engwithans builded machines on Ukaizo to stabilize reincarnation process. Since then the wheel had two components - metaphysical and physical. Eothas destoryed only physical part of the wheel, so it is still working but in less predictable and efficient way. This way Eothas wanted gods to extinct, to leave kiths for themself, because Rymrgand could no longer steals the essence to sustain the gods existence.

What muddles the waters is that PoE1 and 2 kind of contradict one another on whether the Wheel is entirely artificial in nature or whether it (in the form of the adra pillars, at least) was there from the beginning and the Engwithans have just added onto it, however, PoE2's ending and themes (2/3 DLCs included) heavily imply that without it the cycle will be damaged to a point where the kith either figure out a solution or deal with the global equivalent of the hollowborn crisis - Ydwin outright states that she "separated her soul from the Wheel", and she's a fampyr, who has to maintain herself by feeding on the essence of others. That was my takeaway, at least, because otherwise Eothas' plan would have nothing but positives and there's no reason to stop him if the destruction of the machines in Ukaizo is relatively insignificant compared to what it could be.

Same with the nature of the gods - PoE1 only states that the Engwithans created them while PoE2 opens saying that they've made themselves into the gods, which is plausible but still a retcon at the end of the day. The writing already kinda deteriorated once, and it's a common trend nowadays to keep doing so (I don't think Josh Sawyer was actually involved with the game apart from consultation, too?).

https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer/173973262826/pillars-of-eternity-2-spoilers-as-i-understand

I can't find it right now, but there was a writing from Josh Sawyer clarifying this.

[Ereghor the Enigmatic]

Originally posted by Silvaren:

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

What muddles the waters is that PoE1 and 2 kind of contradict one another on whether the Wheel is entirely artificial in nature or whether it (in the form of the adra pillars, at least) was there from the beginning and the Engwithans have just added onto it, however, PoE2's ending and themes (2/3 DLCs included) heavily imply that without it the cycle will be damaged to a point where the kith either figure out a solution or deal with the global equivalent of the hollowborn crisis - Ydwin outright states that she "separated her soul from the Wheel", and she's a fampyr, who has to maintain herself by feeding on the essence of others. That was my takeaway, at least, because otherwise Eothas' plan would have nothing but positives and there's no reason to stop him if the destruction of the machines in Ukaizo is relatively insignificant compared to what it could be.

Same with the nature of the gods - PoE1 only states that the Engwithans created them while PoE2 opens saying that they've made themselves into the gods, which is plausible but still a retcon at the end of the day. The writing already kinda deteriorated once, and it's a common trend nowadays to keep doing so (I don't think Josh Sawyer was actually involved with the game apart from consultation, too?).

https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer/174058952291/so-is-the-idea-that-before-the-wheel

I see, thank you. Reminds me of KotOR 2's unrestored state with how much ended up left unsaid, in a way.

[archonsod]

Originally posted by Ereghor the Enigmatic:

...even though the lore snippets in PoE1 and 2 stated that the Living Lands are the current hotbed of active colonization, with numerous settlements as well as a mention of Castol being demoted to running the operations there if you oust him in front of the VTC investors.

It's not contradictory. It's rare governments establish colonies themselves, more normal is you get an outpost established for a specific reason - say a naval supply yard - and for numerous reasons people start migrating from the home countries to the new land, sometimes with the government's blessing or incentives, sometimes specifically against the desires of the government. Usually it's only once the settlement becomes significant - politically, economically or strategically - it's recognised as a colony.
At this point Aedyr is the only power with an officially recognised government - in the form of the ambassador - and military force in the Living Lands. Recognised in the sense that the other empires acknowledge them as official representatives of the Empire (on the ground it's a different story of course, but the ambassador hasn't been there that long himself). Fior is largely Valian, but still self governing. Thirdborn likewise. Of course it doesn't mean the VTC or Rauataia don't have forces, interests or agents there, just that they're not officially recognised as such by the international community.

going off of a less impactful outcome seems like taking the path of least resistance...

It's unclear whether it was less impactful or not. The Living Lands has it's own reasons the wheel isn't particularly important to it, and we don't really get much information on how it's affected the rest of the world beyond the near disappearance of godlikes and Kai's offhand comment about Eothas giving the wheel a thump.

Way to undermine anyone siding with Rauatai/Huana/Principi... I guess it's meant to be closer to the "wildcard" ending where the Deadfire remains locked in conflict, which is probably the worst one of all.

Like I said it's deliberately ambiguous. The particular quest it's referenced in involves a smuggler obtaining luminous adra for a Valian living in Paradis. They stole it from the VTC, ran into a little trouble that ended up with the adra on the bottom of the ocean and now have the VTC eager to make an example of them. If you talk to the VTC captain you can glean that it's an incredibly rare, and therefore expensive, good only found in Deadfire and that the company has a monopoly on it's trade at least as far as the Valian republic goes. Which covers most endings - could be the VTC own the monopoly on production, could be the Huana won and they're trading it from them (as part of the renegotiated trade contracts mentioned in that Deadfire ending).
It's a similar thing with that Principi flag - could be a sign Furrante passed through in his ongoing search for a homeland. Could just be a trophy or keepsake a settler brought with them from Deadfire.