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I think it's the other gods' maturity that actually make them quite dangerous more so than Sapadal. For example, remember it was Woedica's maegfolc that started and finished the genocide of the Ekida (even if Sapadal killed many Ekida themselves). Woedica doesn't feel guilty about it at all unlike Sapadal. She is smarter and more powerful than Sapadal, and also crueler.
It sounds like you've played PoE 1, but I will spoiler for other potential readers who haven't played: This is because the other gods are programmed by the Engwithans and obsessed with maintaining their artificial order. They care more about that order and their secret (e.g. Leaden Key) than the lives of mortal people. Sapadal is a "natural" god that's still learning about the world and you can teach them to be better and even more caring about people.
Also in PoE 2 (minor spoiler) Woedica casually suggests dropping a moon to stop Eothas's march to Deadfire even if it kills many people. She's more unhinged IMHO.
And yes, the "merge" ending is absolutely horrible. But I don't see it as a "mask off" moment for Sapadal. I think the key is to still see this within the frame of Sapadal being a traumatized child. I'm not sure about an appropriate analogy. Maybe it's like giving one a car or a gun. Sapadal does have a limited understanding of boundaries (like entering your dream repeatedly without your permission/consent) so in hindsight it obviously gets much worse if the Envoy decides to erase said boundaries completely by merging souls. It's also a bit like entering into an abusive relationship and completely enabling the partner's worst behavior. My interpretation is that Sapadal is also corrupted by the merger, maybe they are never meant to experience the selfish individuality of mortals (they start calling themselves with the "I" rather than "we" pronoun near the end, I think it's a very subtle detail). Either way my argument is that it's a specific set of circumstances that makes Sapadal go off the rails, that's not how they inherently are.
Also it's worth considering that Sapadal has suffered a lot, having Woedica come in and destroy everything (even though they did their fair share of destroying), locked away and cut off for thousands of years from everything and everyone, dealing with that guilt. When you choose to kill them, they accept it without resistance because of that guilt, and because they're also tired, it's very heart-wrenching. All Sapadal ever wanted was to connect with other beings and understand the world, just like a person.
edit (spoilers for the "vengeful" Sapadal route): In a playthrough where you validate their anger and tell them to take revenge on Woedica, they do feel less guilty and resigned and are instead more fearful when you go to finish them off (still quite heartbreaking I feel). But this just adds to my point that how Sapadal turns out is really up to the player and the PC.
(PoE 1 spoilers) Also I want to mention that the Saint's War from PoE 1 lore is due to the machinations between Woedica and the Leaden Key, opposed by Eothas. I wouldn't say it's really Dyrwood or Readceras's fault.
Also if you do respond, I'd be curious to know where you found the story's delivery lacking. Like I thought the dialogue could be better in places but it's still way ahead of say, Veilguard.
As for the grefdom, I agree - this option buys time, and the prior history shows how that can lead to becoming independent.
That's an interesting angle though not necessarily contradictory with Sapadal being childlike, especially when placed in comparison with the Engwithan gods, who have a lot more experience, foresight, and purpose. And they're also very kithlike in other ways, namely their emotional processing and desire for validation as well as understanding. They've had personal relationships with many of their godlikes (usually negative and also mixed depending on how you fill in the multiple choice past during the ancient memories). And their gradual learning about consequences. But yeah, their power and scale of consciousness do mean they still see the world a lot differently than a mortal does (e.g. nature metaphors).
My opinion is that the PoE gods (well, gods in general) are holding back the kith from reaching their true potential. I played both PoE 1&2 that way, always trying to strengthen the future of mortals and defending progress at the risk of angering the gods.
I feel that a new god in the game (that proved to be pretty unhinged in the past) is not necessarily a good choice for the mortals themselves. In addition, the „therapy” provided by the Envoy I feel hangs by a thread, which is the Envoy himself, and that is too much at stake for an entire continent. Finally, the Engwithan gods will perceive this new player in the game as a threat and will constantly try to screw things up for Sapadal and the LL.
I am uncertain a newborn god will have the required skills to combat the more experienced pantheon. And at the end of the day, even if it does, it mostly means bloodshed for the humans who really don't give a sheet about those higher machinations. I do not think this is a case where Sapadal acts like a balancing power against Woedica & Co, on the contrary, it adds potential for more chaos.
The end slides are very vague but imagine this scenario:
Emperor gets angry on the Envoy for not bringing the LL in the fold as colonies and orders the Envoy's execution. Or the Envoy is subject to an assasination for whatever reasons. Based on the available information, I believe that Sapadal will just revert to its old ways which will lead to bloodshed. Consider that a god lives across millenia, is really a mortal lifetime enough for Sapadal to get its act together? I understand where the whole „unhinged” thing is coming from for Sapadal and while I understand the human motivation that trauma can be healed, I have doubts this works for a basically immortal entity. It is like a human having childhood abuse and expecting to get it together after 3 therapy sessions.
An independent LL with Sapadal freed would be subject to basically the same machinations of the pantheon like in the Saint's War. And an independent LL will make the Envoy more susceptible to retribution by the Aedyran Empire => coming back to my previous point. The ending slides, in my opinion, are precisely not clear and do not really mention if Sapadal is changed forever or is just kept in balance while the Envoy lives.
I did not contest that the other gods are ok, on the contrary, I to give them the middle finger at every opportunity throughout PoE1&2. And I also do not contest that it is Woedica's fault for how Sapadal turned out (middle finger to Woedica as well) but that does not mean the kith should suffer further and putting Woedica (god of vengeance which just got screwed) against Sapadal does not sound like a good decision.
And to sum up, I thought the story was a bit poorly delivered because honestly none of the characters (NPC or companions) was really worth remembering. Also, the dialogue was just...ok. Not great, not terrible, which is kinda sad for a story that was pretty interesting. more than the usual „bad guy bad, hero must kill bad guy”. Years after playing, I still remember characters and lines of dialogue from some great RPGs like KOTOR, Mass Effect, New Vegas, Dragon Age (not Veilguard tho, really, the Veilguard comparison is bad, that is like the bottom of the barrel in terms of writing).
I am upset that Avowed slightly misses the mark of being great. I could even forgive this if the Living Lands were more...well, alive.
Yeah, the ants are the humans in the LL and, In my opinion, that just reinforces my point that Sapdal gotta go (if possible with Woedica and all the other ones).
I don't get what you are saying? Just because we have some insane gods already, we should allow another one into the fold? It is like putting in a maximum security prison full of serial killer that are just crazy another serial killer that was abused in childhood. What good really can come of that? I feel this just adds to the chaos for the mortals.
I don't get what you are saying? Just because we have some insane gods already, we should allow another one into the fold? It is like putting in a maximum security prison full of serial killer that are just crazy another serial killer that was abused in childhood. What good really can come of that? I feel this just adds to the chaos for the mortals. [/quote]
Sure, another voice, one that came into being by itself, would just add more chaos... better kill it, makes the guys that are there already feel better, too... better to go with what you know, right?
I think you are making a terrible argument here, but that's just me...
Sure, another voice, one that came into being by itself, would just add more chaos... better kill it, makes the guys that are there already feel better, too... better to go with what you know, right?
I think you are making a terrible argument here, but that's just me... [/quote]
An UNHINGED voice. Always better to have 11 mad people than 12. Ideally 0 but we take what we can.
Point taken, a comparison with Veilguard is a diss on Avowed.
The slides for Sapadal's best ending don't strictly and explicitly state that they're changed forever to your criterion I suppose, but it is quite strongly suggested. The one with Sargamis's adra statue strongly hints that Sapadal gradually matures on their own and is less needy and reliant of the Envoy. But I understand if you have a different interpretation.
A lot of Sapadal's guilt doesn't come out of nowhere, it's from many centuries of stewing in their own thoughts during their imprisonment as well. This is why what the Envoy does is either guide them to finally process it (or invalidate it in a darker ending). I still think that's realistic.
Now that we're talking about it, I guess it's annoying that there aren't more slides about what's going on with the Envoy after the game. Romancing Kai and the slide about the adra statue just suggest that the Envoy continues to live for a while in the Living Lands. The Envoy getting assassinated by Aedyr is an interesting theoretical possibility. Yes, it's plausible that Aedyr would be antagonistic in the near-term. But at one point, the US started a relationship with the UK after their revolution, didn't they?
A lot of your case seems to fundamentally rest on "greater good" utility and appeasement. I'm not sure what to say to that. Should smaller countries just roll over for bigger ones without resisting on principle because they'll get conquered and there'll be a bloodbath anyway? Should a bullying victim just take it and not get their bully in trouble because there is a risk they'll get beat up worse later?
Anyway, the Engwithan gods have become significantly weaker after the destruction of the Wheel in PoE II. This explains why they they wanted to recall most of their godlikes and why Woedica is especially desperate at this point in the timeline to kill Sapadal. They're still very strong, but I guess they don't have the power to prosecute a prolonged war against the Living Lands, which they can't project power into directly anyway because of the separate adra network (this is why Woedica relied on the maegfolc). Sargamis also mentions about a potential future divine war as well that may or may not be true, but would certainly keep the gods busy in preparation if it is. So there's the possibility in the future that Sapadal can eventually challenge them or at the very least hold their own.
I do not see the action of eliminating a potential threat to kith as appeasement of Woedica. Just because Woedica & Sapadal are opposed, going against one is not automatically siding with the other one. Let's not forget that even if I eliminated Sapadal, I also eliminated Woedica's champion and basically her entire order of paladins. And if the game offered any chance to eliminate Woedica as well, I would take it. But until then, I take the path that results in the least complication and future potential for the kith to choose their fate.
I think this case is more one like there are 2 superpowers fighting for control of a small country. You kick out one superpower from that country, catch your breath, and you find ways to kick the other one as well. With Sapadal eliminated + grefram, I did not get the vibe in any way from the end slides that Woedica is significantly empowered.
I think as well that your argument relies on Sapadal being just a poor victim. While true from a human perspective, we should not forget that it is also an immortal god of immense power that destroyed a lot of lives (hence Sapadal is a superpower, although an upstart one).
In my opinion, not everyone deserves to be redemeed and society would be better off without certain individuals, even though we can understand where their actions are coming from. Hell, even Hitler had a bad childhood.
The fact that the Engwithan gods have become weaker after POE2 is, in my opinion, an opportunity to actually get rid of all of them. Adding another one in the mix is not really my objective.
Also, Sapadal & the fate of the LL are two separate things, you can also free Sapadal & make the LL a colony of Aedyr which works out decently enough if I remember correctly, I think for me it is the 3rd best ending after the one mentioned in my OP and free Sapadal + grefram.
As for the future, really it is up to each person's interpretation. In my playthrough, I allowed Spadal to join with the statue but after the end slides I got really strong Eothas-like vibes which you know...sucks.
1) Sapadal is the first true and genuine god. All others are man made and rely on the wheel which was destroyed in PoE2.
So Sapadal might offer a solution to stop the doom of the world and the artificial gods. It can not get any worse.
So I freed her.
It's just, I figured the twelfth was some suppressed moon god that Ondra was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.
And unfortunately, this does mean there's now 13 godlike types, so it's still not 1:1.