Why I believe the story of this game is poorly constructed (spoilers obviously).

[Ares]

Let me preface this by saying that I played through the game "clearing" every zone (doing all sidequests, exploration etc), but deliberately chose to pick what I believe will be close to the most common path through the game. I have obviously not seen every outcome or ending, but I believe this is largely what most people (who don't decide to be evil) will experience.

So, we start in chapter one where we're being told by everyone how Steel Garrote sucks and how they're messing with everyone. However throughout the entire chapter there is only a single incidental encounter with the Steel Garrote, where a Steel Garrote Captain is complaining about the local guards being rowdy. At no point do we actually experience Steel Garrote being a problem for the locals. Then we get to the end of chapter one where we're presented with the most Disney-villain introduction possible, making it prefectly clear to anyone playing that this is the main villain and end-boss of the game. Arguably you could say their abscence works to build tension for this reveal, but I would argue having encounters like the main square execution in Novigrad in Witcher 3 does a far better job at introducing the player to the villainy of an antagonistic faction like this.

Then we get into chapter two and Steel Garrote is again nowhere to be found. That is unless you happen to find their hidden cave or do the side-quest revealing it. But even if you do it is a swift non-interaction unless you decide to go for the hidden objective that will change the path of story. However most people won't do this, and they will go through chapter two and get to the point where the city is burning and Steel Garrote is suddenly immediately hostile to you. You have a short encounter at the very end with the Captain where you make your first real choice about what side you're on.

Chapter three, again Steel Garrote is nowhere to be found. This is the main antagonistic force of the story, and apparently they're not doing anything to cause trouble or impede you. So again we get to the end of the chapter and suddenly they pop up again. We get another Disney-villain reveal, and for some reason the conflict is de-escalated and they want you to cooperate. This makes no sense. If this is the intended path of the story then chapter two and three should be switched so that you have the steady escalation to the point that by the end of (the now) chapter three you make the choice to either join or fight them. As it stands you've already made this choice by the time you enter chapter three, but then when you encounter them again you're just not allowed to fight them for some reason.

Also, this is the first time you're given a "pick your poison" choice, and I have to go on a little tangent here. If you want to implement a choice like this in a game you have to make sure the player doesn't immediately go "why can't I do X?". This choice has other obvious better solutions to it, like the fact that before you entered the ruins the mage had already put up a shield that isolated the ruins, or if you wanna side with the Steel Garrote you could just tell them stay behind and control the area while you go and attempt to root out the source. Not to mention, this isn't even a problem that needs an immediate solution in any way.

Anyways, we get to chapter four. This time we're finally presented with the fact that Steel Garrote is present in the area and doing "stuff". So we go to the mines, have our final confrontation with Lödwyn, and the story has reached its climax so we move on to the end by going to the Garden to either free or destroy Sapadal, right ? No, for some reason after our "final" confrontation with Lödwyn we now shift gears to this subtheme of the story regarding what happens with the people on the island and we're thrust into this situation happening at the Keep just so we can again make a decision that will influence how the people of the island percieve us. Then we go into a prolonged section in the garden just rehashing a lot of the stuff with our companions until we finally get to Sapadal, and then we're done, right ? Nope. Back to start, make an arbitrary decision about what happens to the island and then into an anti-climactic fight against Lödwyn again. This ending is a mess.

Firstly, if you really wanted the "she's back again" moment with Lödwyn, then the first fight should've been in the third chapter and the last fight in the fourth. If you wanted the crisis situation at the Keep to create a choice that determines the fate of the dwarves that should've happened by discovering Lödwyns plans at the mines and then discovering she's gone to the Keep and is messing things up by trying to enter the Garden, moving the final confrotation to the Keep. The rehash with the companions is completely unneccessary, and the fate of the island should've just been consequences of your choices throughout the game presented in the final cinematic. The fact that you, an Envoy of the Emperor, somehow gets to decide this massive geopolitical outcome is akin to the end of Game of Thrones when Bran gets chosen to be king.

But then we get to the biggest issue with this story, it would've been far far better if you weren't a Godlike. The fact that you're the Godlike of Sapadal creates a dynamic that makes many of the choices far less interesting since it makes everything very obvisouly good vs evil, and it also introduces a ton of useless boring dream squences to the game. You might argue that these sequences gives context, but most of it is just rehashing a lot of things we already know (or things that could easily be introduced otherwise) and then a lot of yammering. Not to mention that these sequences are terribly presented. If the player wasn't a Godlike the choice between Woedica and Sapadal becomes far more interesting, as the player isn't already massively invested in one side.

Also, as a final sidenote, the fact that Sapadal turns out to be good if you decide to side with them, after all the warning signs and the fact that you're so heavily pushed that way from the start is incredibly milquetoast. If Sapadal actually turned out to be this unruly chaotic force of nature at least that would've put an interesting spin on this otherwise extremely predictable path.

[ahsaP]

You keep saying the steel garrote were nowhere, but I thought they were definitely prevalent enough. I ran into them all the time. They are not supposed to have a foothold outside paradis unless you fail to protect fior and any other objectives

So not sure why you would expect them to be any more than schemers hiding and moving. Exactly what they are presented as for the most part.

[archonsod]

So tl:dr, if you go through the game with your eyes closed and brain in neutral you'll finish the game a bit confused as to what just happened?
A lot of what you're describing is only the case if you ignore the lore scattered about, don't question other characters and simply pursue the obvious path forward. I'm also a bit confused as to how being Sapadal's godlike "makes everything very obvisouly good vs evil". Just to take the tutorial for example, you have the option of freeing Ilora from her cage. A cage she's in because she was caught trying to steal gunpowder, and freely admits to being a smuggler. When questioned on why she hates the Aedyran presence she openly admits it's because they'll enforce the law. It's a theme picked up on in Paradis where you see the effects of 'freedom'; the town is run by gangsters with people being murdered and mugged in the street and a militia than long ago gave up trying to maintain law and order - much to the chagrin of the recent Aedyr arrivals. You're also shown the downsides of Imperial law - the Steel Garotte being the obvious extreme, but there's numerous points throughout that map where you have the opportunity to enforce Imperial law (A Lady Never Tells, Escape Plan, even the main quest if you turn in the rebel informant or assassin) most of which result, in the very least, with people being locked up, if not tortured and executed.
So exactly which side are the good guys here - the anarchic rebels who's principle objection to the Empire is that it might stop them knifing their neighbours for spare change, or authoritarian empire which will happily torture and execute someone just because they happen to know the wrong people?

[Slobozaurul]

What you are saying in my opinion ties to the worst aspect of the game which is the lifelessness of it. NPCs and the world, outside of your interaction with them, are absolutely static and dead. I felt the same about the Steel Garrote all throughout the game, they were the antagonist but not really „present”. I wished I could find some camps, some SG beating peasants or demanding fealty to Woedica. Even if I could not interact with these events, it would still have been more immersive.

Otherwise, I felt the antagonists were not evil for evil's sake which in my opinion makes them pretty compelling. Lodwyn actually made some good points from time to time. I felt most of the choices in the game were pretty morally grey.

Indeed, the ending slides are not showing too much for my liking, especially long term effects of your choices. Does Aedyr put the boot down on the Living Lands or not? Will animancy have any success or not?

For me, the best ending is Grefram + dead Sapadal, even though I tried to be kind and supportive with her. But considering the „merge” ending and me thinking what happens when the Envoy dies, I chose not to free her. . I think the premise of the story and its direction was amazing but the delivery was kinda average. At the same time, it is very difficult to implement in a videogame a million possibilities that cross the minds of players and Avowed did not go in this direction (which is fine, there are good linear games).

[Videogame Jukebox]

a lot of stories in gaming are nonsense. If I wanted a good story, I would go read a book.

[JocularJosh]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

a lot of stories in gaming are nonsense. If I wanted a good story, I would go read a book.

.... bro this is a rpg we are talking about.
And in case of Avowed, if it doesn't offer a good story what else is there? Cause actual gameplay surely was not the focus of this game.

[Videogame Jukebox]

Opprinnelig skrevet av JocularJosh:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

a lot of stories in gaming are nonsense. If I wanted a good story, I would go read a book.

.... bro this is a rpg we are talking about.
And in case of Avowed, if it doesn't offer a good story what else is there? Cause actual gameplay surely was not the focus of this game.

Seriously asking me what else aside from story there is in an RPG? As you say......"........bro"

[Slobozaurul]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

a lot of stories in gaming are nonsense. If I wanted a good story, I would go read a book.

A lot of RPGs have better stories than 90% of the books out there. Pillars 1&2 for example has world building at the level of the best fantasy books out there in my opinion (and they are not even close to the best RPGs out there). The fact that you also write part of that story while you play and determine their endings is also a + in favour of some videogames.

[Videogame Jukebox]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Slobozaurul:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

a lot of stories in gaming are nonsense. If I wanted a good story, I would go read a book.

A lot of RPGs have better stories than 90% of the books out there. Pillars 1&2 for example has world building at the level of the best fantasy books out there in my opinion. The fact that you also write part of that story while you play and determine their endings is also a + in favour of some videogames.

they are all the same fantasy trope.

bad guys get powerful
demons invade
the world is ending it needs to be stopped
etc etc.

While there may be good stories in the RPG genre, and hidden gems like Blue Dragon, there isnt much diversity in story lines.

[JocularJosh]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

Opprinnelig skrevet av JocularJosh:

.... bro this is a rpg we are talking about.
And in case of Avowed, if it doesn't offer a good story what else is there? Cause actual gameplay surely was not the focus of this game.

Seriously asking me what else aside from story there is in an RPG? As you say......"........bro"

I said in case of avowed. Learn to read.

[XartaX]

Opprinnelig skrevet av JocularJosh:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

Seriously asking me what else aside from story there is in an RPG? As you say......"........bro"

I said in case of avowed. Learn to read.

I'm not sure that's within their abilities

[Videogame Jukebox]

Opprinnelig skrevet av JocularJosh:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

Seriously asking me what else aside from story there is in an RPG? As you say......"........bro"

I said in case of avowed. Learn to read.

".... bro this is a rpg we are talking about."

Learn to say what you mean. blocked since rude.

[JocularJosh]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

Opprinnelig skrevet av JocularJosh:

I said in case of avowed. Learn to read.

".... bro this is a rpg we are talking about."

Learn to say what you mean. blocked since rude.

Yes and in RPGs if the story is whack that's a huge portion of the game being whack.
Read my full comment next time. Jesus.

[restarter]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Slobozaurul:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Videogame Jukebox:

a lot of stories in gaming are nonsense. If I wanted a good story, I would go read a book.

A lot of RPGs have better stories than 90% of the books out there. Pillars 1&2 for example has world building at the level of the best fantasy books out there in my opinion (and they are not even close to the best RPGs out there). The fact that you also write part of that story while you play and determine their endings is also a + in favour of some videogames.

wt...are you serious? I've read a ton of books and played a ton of rpg's heavily invested in the story. I read nothing but fantasy books back in the 90's when I was grounded throughout much of my jr high. years.
Some RPG's are pretty good but deliver nowhere near what a book can. You are literally reading hundreds of pages of world building, character building, relationships, etc.. In no reality do video games tell a better and story than a book can. It's just mechanically impossible. Same with movies. read a book and then watch the movie and they leave a ton of ♥♥♥♥ out and change things because they have to make it work with the cinematography, time restraints, budgeting, etc.. Same with video games. this is such a laughable comment.

[XartaX]

Opprinnelig skrevet av restarter:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Slobozaurul:

A lot of RPGs have better stories than 90% of the books out there. Pillars 1&2 for example has world building at the level of the best fantasy books out there in my opinion (and they are not even close to the best RPGs out there). The fact that you also write part of that story while you play and determine their endings is also a + in favour of some videogames.

wt...are you serious? I've read a ton of books and played a ton of rpg's heavily invested in the story. I read nothing but fantasy books back in the 90's when I was grounded throughout much of my jr high. years.
Some RPG's are pretty good but deliver nowhere near what a book can. You are literally reading hundreds of pages of world building, character building, relationships, etc.. In no reality do video games tell a better and story than a book can. It's just mechanically impossible. Same with movies. read a book and then watch the movie and they leave a ton of ♥♥♥♥ out and change things because they have to make it work with the cinematography, time restraints, budgeting, etc.. Same with video games. this is such a laughable comment.

It's completely normal for video games (especially RPG's) to have a script of a similar word count to fantasy novels. And then we're not taking into account the amount of information a game can transmit through a non-written medium (like visuals).

Edit: Baldur's Gate 2, for example, has around a million words. Dune (the novel) has around 185K. The Silmarillion is around 130K. Etc. etc.

[Slobozaurul]

Opprinnelig skrevet av restarter:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Slobozaurul:

A lot of RPGs have better stories than 90% of the books out there. Pillars 1&2 for example has world building at the level of the best fantasy books out there in my opinion (and they are not even close to the best RPGs out there). The fact that you also write part of that story while you play and determine their endings is also a + in favour of some videogames.

wt...are you serious? I've read a ton of books and played a ton of rpg's heavily invested in the story. I read nothing but fantasy books back in the 90's when I was grounded throughout much of my jr high. years.
Some RPG's are pretty good but deliver nowhere near what a book can. You are literally reading hundreds of pages of world building, character building, relationships, etc.. In no reality do video games tell a better and story than a book can. It's just mechanically impossible. Same with movies. read a book and then watch the movie and they leave a ton of ♥♥♥♥ out and change things because they have to make it work with the cinematography, time restraints, budgeting, etc.. Same with video games. this is such a laughable comment.

If you just play through the main story of RPGs, maybe you are correct.

Some RPGs have a lot of lore, inferred and otherwise, books to read within the game, dialogue that can vary in each playthrough, side content that you see only in particular situations. Some games play so differently from one playthrough to another that they feel like different games alltogether.

As an idea, the Witcher 3 script is about 450k words while Game of Thrones average per novel is 300k (and GOT novels are massive). Pillars 1 has about 700k, Planescape Torment about 800k and KCD2 and BG3 have each about 2 million.

So I am not sure how you think a novel which is linear and with less actually written words can have more world and character building than a video game which can offer a lot of reading material. I am just giving examples and definetly not generalizing one way or the other, some games are garbage just like some books are garbage.