Why I believe the story of this game is poorly constructed (spoilers obviously).

[Ares]

Let me preface this by saying that I played through the game "clearing" every zone (doing all sidequests, exploration etc), but deliberately chose to pick what I believe will be close to the most common path through the game. I have obviously not seen every outcome or ending, but I believe this is largely what most people (who don't decide to be evil) will experience.

So, we start in chapter one where we're being told by everyone how Steel Garrote sucks and how they're messing with everyone. However throughout the entire chapter there is only a single incidental encounter with the Steel Garrote, where a Steel Garrote Captain is complaining about the local guards being rowdy. At no point do we actually experience Steel Garrote being a problem for the locals. Then we get to the end of chapter one where we're presented with the most Disney-villain introduction possible, making it prefectly clear to anyone playing that this is the main villain and end-boss of the game. Arguably you could say their abscence works to build tension for this reveal, but I would argue having encounters like the main square execution in Novigrad in Witcher 3 does a far better job at introducing the player to the villainy of an antagonistic faction like this.

Then we get into chapter two and Steel Garrote is again nowhere to be found. That is unless you happen to find their hidden cave or do the side-quest revealing it. But even if you do it is a swift non-interaction unless you decide to go for the hidden objective that will change the path of story. However most people won't do this, and they will go through chapter two and get to the point where the city is burning and Steel Garrote is suddenly immediately hostile to you. You have a short encounter at the very end with the Captain where you make your first real choice about what side you're on.

Chapter three, again Steel Garrote is nowhere to be found. This is the main antagonistic force of the story, and apparently they're not doing anything to cause trouble or impede you. So again we get to the end of the chapter and suddenly they pop up again. We get another Disney-villain reveal, and for some reason the conflict is de-escalated and they want you to cooperate. This makes no sense. If this is the intended path of the story then chapter two and three should be switched so that you have the steady escalation to the point that by the end of (the now) chapter three you make the choice to either join or fight them. As it stands you've already made this choice by the time you enter chapter three, but then when you encounter them again you're just not allowed to fight them for some reason.

Also, this is the first time you're given a "pick your poison" choice, and I have to go on a little tangent here. If you want to implement a choice like this in a game you have to make sure the player doesn't immediately go "why can't I do X?". This choice has other obvious better solutions to it, like the fact that before you entered the ruins the mage had already put up a shield that isolated the ruins, or if you wanna side with the Steel Garrote you could just tell them stay behind and control the area while you go and attempt to root out the source. Not to mention, this isn't even a problem that needs an immediate solution in any way.

Anyways, we get to chapter four. This time we're finally presented with the fact that Steel Garrote is present in the area and doing "stuff". So we go to the mines, have our final confrontation with Lödwyn, and the story has reached its climax so we move on to the end by going to the Garden to either free or destroy Sapadal, right ? No, for some reason after our "final" confrontation with Lödwyn we now shift gears to this subtheme of the story regarding what happens with the people on the island and we're thrust into this situation happening at the Keep just so we can again make a decision that will influence how the people of the island percieve us. Then we go into a prolonged section in the garden just rehashing a lot of the stuff with our companions until we finally get to Sapadal, and then we're done, right ? Nope. Back to start, make an arbitrary decision about what happens to the island and then into an anti-climactic fight against Lödwyn again. This ending is a mess.

Firstly, if you really wanted the "she's back again" moment with Lödwyn, then the first fight should've been in the third chapter and the last fight in the fourth. If you wanted the crisis situation at the Keep to create a choice that determines the fate of the dwarves that should've happened by discovering Lödwyns plans at the mines and then discovering she's gone to the Keep and is messing things up by trying to enter the Garden, moving the final confrotation to the Keep. The rehash with the companions is completely unneccessary, and the fate of the island should've just been consequences of your choices throughout the game presented in the final cinematic. The fact that you, an Envoy of the Emperor, somehow gets to decide this massive geopolitical outcome is akin to the end of Game of Thrones when Bran gets chosen to be king.

But then we get to the biggest issue with this story, it would've been far far better if you weren't a Godlike. The fact that you're the Godlike of Sapadal creates a dynamic that makes many of the choices far less interesting since it makes everything very obvisouly good vs evil, and it also introduces a ton of useless boring dream squences to the game. You might argue that these sequences gives context, but most of it is just rehashing a lot of things we already know (or things that could easily be introduced otherwise) and then a lot of yammering. Not to mention that these sequences are terribly presented. If the player wasn't a Godlike the choice between Woedica and Sapadal becomes far more interesting, as the player isn't already massively invested in one side.

Also, as a final sidenote, the fact that Sapadal turns out to be good if you decide to side with them, after all the warning signs and the fact that you're so heavily pushed that way from the start is incredibly milquetoast. If Sapadal actually turned out to be this unruly chaotic force of nature at least that would've put an interesting spin on this otherwise extremely predictable path.

[Knightspace]

Originally posted by archonsod:

So tl:dr, if you go through the game with your eyes closed and brain in neutral you'll finish the game a bit confused as to what just happened?
A lot of what you're describing is only the case if you ignore the lore scattered about, don't question other characters and simply pursue the obvious path forward. I'm also a bit confused as to how being Sapadal's godlike "makes everything very obvisouly good vs evil". Just to take the tutorial for example, you have the option of freeing Ilora from her cage. A cage she's in because she was caught trying to steal gunpowder, and freely admits to being a smuggler. When questioned on why she hates the Aedyran presence she openly admits it's because they'll enforce the law. It's a theme picked up on in Paradis where you see the effects of 'freedom'; the town is run by gangsters with people being murdered and mugged in the street and a militia than long ago gave up trying to maintain law and order - much to the chagrin of the recent Aedyr arrivals. You're also shown the downsides of Imperial law - the Steel Garotte being the obvious extreme, but there's numerous points throughout that map where you have the opportunity to enforce Imperial law (A Lady Never Tells, Escape Plan, even the main quest if you turn in the rebel informant or assassin) most of which result, in the very least, with people being locked up, if not tortured and executed.
So exactly which side are the good guys here - the anarchic rebels who's principle objection to the Empire is that it might stop them knifing their neighbours for spare change, or authoritarian empire which will happily torture and execute someone just because they happen to know the wrong people?

The main points of the story and it's context should be a part of the main quest line, not be scattered about. Sure, details and even further context is great, but the plot drivers themselves shouldn't be optional read

Look, I'm a lore nerd, I read EVERYTHING I come across in games and beyond, yet even i cannot agree with you.

[Videogame Jukebox]

Originally posted by Slobozaurul:

Originally posted by restarter:

wt...are you serious? I've read a ton of books and played a ton of rpg's heavily invested in the story. I read nothing but fantasy books back in the 90's when I was grounded throughout much of my jr high. years.
Some RPG's are pretty good but deliver nowhere near what a book can. You are literally reading hundreds of pages of world building, character building, relationships, etc.. In no reality do video games tell a better and story than a book can. It's just mechanically impossible. Same with movies. read a book and then watch the movie and they leave a ton of ♥♥♥♥ out and change things because they have to make it work with the cinematography, time restraints, budgeting, etc.. Same with video games. this is such a laughable comment.

If you just play through the main story of RPGs, maybe you are correct.

Some RPGs have a lot of lore, inferred and otherwise, books to read within the game, dialogue that can vary in each playthrough, side content that you see only in particular situations. Some games play so differently from one playthrough to another that they feel like different games alltogether.

As an idea, the Witcher 3 script is about 450k words while Game of Thrones average per novel is 300k (and GOT novels are massive). Pillars 1 has about 700k, Planescape Torment about 800k and KCD2 and BG3 have each about 2 million.

So I am not sure how you think a novel which is linear and with less actually written words can have more world and character building than a video game which can offer a lot of reading material. I am just giving examples and definetly not generalizing one way or the other, some games are garbage just like some books are garbage.

The Witchers lore was created in the books so it kind of proves his point, Witcher was a book series.

[vamirez]

It's normal for games that if you don't do anything optional, you will miss parts of the story and the better endings, if they exist. But this game is made for players who on average would want to explore a little more - that is one of the if not the main strength of this game - the exploration.

It's really easy to find the Garrote in Emerald Stair, and there are numerous mentions that they are there, and there is a guy that contacts you and you can have him find them for you.

I.e. the point of this thread is very much constructed in a way as to create another talking point and echo chamber for the haters. Which is funny because by playing everyone can see easily that most of the list of criticisms leveled against the game is bs (of course, as in most cases).
Gamers either love or hate a game, and they will do all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain both. Add the moronic culture war, and here we are. I'll give you two serious tips: Not every game will be what you personally like or expect, and apart from that just try to enjoy something for what it is once in a while.
There are some beloved games that deserve much more criticism than this one. And if you dislike something you could at least try to stick to facts or speaking on personal taste. (And yes, I know both sides of the coin. Try to explain on the BG3 forum why no sane person would travel with an evil priest and a vampire...)

[[PVP] Boss Prime]

The narrative design is overly amateur.
1) Way too many lines of dialogue, overly written and lacks player agency
2) Inconsequential choices
3) You can steal, what a joke...how did that become an oversight. No robbery system,?

[Slobozaurul]

Originally posted by Videogame Jukebox:

Originally posted by Slobozaurul:

If you just play through the main story of RPGs, maybe you are correct.

Some RPGs have a lot of lore, inferred and otherwise, books to read within the game, dialogue that can vary in each playthrough, side content that you see only in particular situations. Some games play so differently from one playthrough to another that they feel like different games alltogether.

As an idea, the Witcher 3 script is about 450k words while Game of Thrones average per novel is 300k (and GOT novels are massive). Pillars 1 has about 700k, Planescape Torment about 800k and KCD2 and BG3 have each about 2 million.

So I am not sure how you think a novel which is linear and with less actually written words can have more world and character building than a video game which can offer a lot of reading material. I am just giving examples and definetly not generalizing one way or the other, some games are garbage just like some books are garbage.

The Witchers lore was created in the books so it kind of proves his point, Witcher was a book series.

Yes, and the game has a word count that is half of the entire 7 books series. Moreover, it fleshed out the world in a way Andrezj Sapowski could not, hence why the book series was not so successful before the game released.