Ars Technica review, what to make of it?

[EntityofDesire]

I just read the arstechnica review of the game and they make a big point about the story more or less making you out to be the bad guy because your part of the "colonizers" and while I get the story mechanic of this (ie the outside or oppressing force) with all the political crap going on and some liberal groups/writers are trying to push self shame, guilt on people for existing because (ie colonial past) I'm wondering if this the intent too of this story or is it just a story mcguffin? (ie narrative tool to drive the story)

Can anybody tell me where this story falls? I'm interested in the game, i love pillars 1 and 2, but if the story is going to lecture me because of human history of humans constantly colonizing or destroying each other (as some kind of new thing we need to feel bad about) than kinda saps the fun out of wanting to play it.

[jonoliveira12]

I can agree with the Spanish destroying the Aztec empire being a good thing (they even had to stop the Tlaxcala from genociding the Aztecs afterwards, so deep was the hatred they had for their former masters), but not what they did afterwards in a lot of cases.

[50 Shades of Gandalf the Grey]

Originally posted by katarack21:

Originally posted by 50 Shades of Gandalf the Grey:

That's because it was an actual good thing for them, and they should be thankful for it. And the honest ones are.

That's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nuts, and like I said, you're a colonialist so I shouldn't be surprised.

Literally murdering and raping *MILLIONS* of people was a "good thing" for the people in question. What the actual ♥♥♥♥.

The murder and SA would have occurred regardless, at the hands of your neighbors or your enemy tribes. Just like it did before the colonists arrived.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by 50 Shades of Gandalf the Grey:

Originally posted by katarack21:

That's ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ nuts, and like I said, you're a colonialist so I shouldn't be surprised.

Literally murdering and raping *MILLIONS* of people was a "good thing" for the people in question. What the actual ♥♥♥♥.

The murder and SA would have occurred regardless, at the hands of your neighbors or your enemy tribes. Just like it did before the colonists arrived.

Not at all. What are you on about?

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by 50 Shades of Gandalf the Grey:

The murder and SA would have occurred regardless, at the hands of your neighbors or your enemy tribes. Just like it did before the colonists arrived.

Not at all. What are you on about?

Human history.

Every culture, literally every one, is guilty of everything you are blaming on colonialism.

[jonoliveira12]

Originally posted by Dragon Master:

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Not at all. What are you on about?

Human history.

Every culture, literally every one, is guilty of everything you are blaming on colonialism.

Yes, but that does not make Colonialism good.
It just defeats the woke position taht white people are uniquely bad in History.

[XartaX]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Justifying Colonialism with "but the locals did it too" is stupid.

Saying being an evil colonialist should not be an option in a game (specially when it was an option in PoE2) is also stupid.

Games are not real, and are about choice.

First of all it's colonist.

Secondly, colonialism is generally good. But in the end it is a tool, so it can be used in bad ways as well, obviously.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Originally posted by Dragon Master:

Human history.

Every culture, literally every one, is guilty of everything you are blaming on colonialism.

Yes, but that does not make Colonialism good.
It just defeats the woke position taht white people are uniquely bad in History.

I don't think you'll see me defending colonialism as I'm just taking an objective look at history.

For example, did you know that Egyptians were destroying their ancient Egypt relics because they didn't understand their historic or cultural value until the British dug them up and took them to London to preserve them and study them since tomb raiders in Egypt were destroying everything they could to get a quick buck. Only after Britian realized the value of it all and hired a bunch of locals to help them dig it up and start studying did the locals come to realize the history that they themselves had forgotten over thousands of years.

Does that mean everything that Britain did in Egypt was good? Of course not, but we wouldn't know anything about Ancient Egypt without them being there and seeing the cultural and historic value of all of it since the Egyptians themselves forgot it all.

[themadpoet]

Haven't followed the conversation (sorry), but just popping in with the "Pillars has *always* been about colonialism" comment. It's a big part of what they explore thematically in all their games, this is just another angle of it. PoE was set in a post-rebellion former colony and Deadfire was the most game about colonialism that could ever be gamed.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by themadpoet:

Haven't followed the conversation (sorry), but just popping in with the "Pillars has *always* been about colonialism" comment. It's a big part of what they explore thematically in all their games, this is just another angle of it. PoE was set in a post-rebellion former colony and Deadfire was the most game about colonialism that could ever be gamed.

True.

The conversation veered from that a long time ago though. How are you doing, by the way?

[EntityofDesire]

Um wow, 4 pages of responses and nobody actually addressed my question directly lol - two people mentioned me one that I'm angry there commentary on colonialism (im not angry) or that its always existed in Pillars games. Yes your right it has and I was fine WITH BOTH.

My question is does Avow take it one step further with the writers trying to make the player feel bad or lecture them beyond the scope of a games story or setting?

There is a difference between witnessing or being part of colonialism in a story (esp 4x games, a key pillar of 4X is subjugating populations to my empires will, as i expand across the map and take what I desire) AND a writer going out of their way to LECTURE or guilt players about real world colonialism with their own political ideology or messaging ie pushing their own self guilt and expect you to feel bad too - AND AGAIN I'm referring to the Ars article because it does SUGGEST that impression - but im also unclear (hence why I say it suggests, doesnt outright confirm)

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2025/02/avowed-review-wait-are-we-the-baddies/

So what is it, just part of the story or does the writer go out of their way to lecture or guilty players?

[Fyyyyysh]

Originally posted by EntityofDesire:

Um wow, 4 pages of responses and nobody actually addressed my question directly lol - two people mentioned me one that I'm angry there commentary on colonialism (im not angry) or that its always existed in Pillars games. Yes your right it has and I was fine WITH BOTH.

My question is does Avow take it one step further with the writers trying to make the player feel bad or lecture them beyond the scope of a games story or setting?

There is a difference between witnessing or being part of colonialism in a story (esp 4x games, a key pillar of 4X is subjugating populations to my empires will, as i expand across the map and take what I desire) AND a writer going out of their way to LECTURE or guilt players about real world colonialism with their own political ideology or messaging ie pushing their own self guilt and expect you to feel bad too - AND AGAIN I'm referring to the Ars article because it does SUGGEST that impression - but im also unclear (hence why I say it suggests, doesnt outright confirm)

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2025/02/avowed-review-wait-are-we-the-baddies/

So what is it, just part of the story or does the writer go out of their way to lecture or guilty players?

So far as I’ve played, it seems to me like everyone is a colonist in the living lands and it’s more of the matter of Aedyr Empire wanting to exert its control and power over the more independent colonists, which obviously isn’t liked by the colonists in question. So far dialogue options range between being strongly pro-Empire, neutral, and more pro-independent colonists.

Just like the first pillars game took place in the former colony which rebelled against the empire and gained independence.

[WarPigeon]

Originally posted by EntityofDesire:

Um wow, 4 pages of responses and nobody actually addressed my question directly lol - two people mentioned me one that I'm angry there commentary on colonialism (im not angry) or that its always existed in Pillars games. Yes your right it has and I was fine WITH BOTH.

My question is does Avow take it one step further with the writers trying to make the player feel bad or lecture them beyond the scope of a games story or setting?

There is a difference between witnessing or being part of colonialism in a story (esp 4x games, a key pillar of 4X is subjugating populations to my empires will, as i expand across the map and take what I desire) AND a writer going out of their way to LECTURE or guilt players about real world colonialism with their own political ideology or messaging ie pushing their own self guilt and expect you to feel bad too - AND AGAIN I'm referring to the Ars article because it does SUGGEST that impression - but im also unclear (hence why I say it suggests, doesnt outright confirm)

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2025/02/avowed-review-wait-are-we-the-baddies/

So what is it, just part of the story or does the writer go out of their way to lecture or guilty players?

Can you give an example of a game/movie/book that lectures its audience about colonialism? Because obviously there are varying degrees of it, and I think most people would be fine with some amount of criticism of colonialism.

I mean, it's somewhat akin to feudalism in that few people outside of the mega-wealthy have any desire to go back to that system.

[Not People]

If you're looking for a real answer, there's not a lot of players who've gotten very far in the game. Including myself. But from what I've seen so far, there isn't a native people here (outside of the lizard folks who are kill-on-sight enemies). There's ruins of an older civilization that disappeared. But otherwise the area seems populated by folks that left larger empires to seek life outside of normal rule. However, the Aedyran Empire is looking for ways to control the area. And you are an envoy from that empire, but you're also there to stop a real problem that they can't handle on their own.

So, at least from what I've seen, the setup is more like if Europeans left their home nations to settle their own empty lands away from those monarchies, only to have the monarchies follow them and sink their hooks in, in attempts to claim the new lands and regain control of those people.

So, it's technically colonization, but I've not seen anything about a native people. It's like the English Navy going into a pirate town in the Caribbean, if the Caribbean had been otherwise uninhabited and all the pirates came from European nations. Or England following the settlers to the Americas and taxing them, but the Native Americans weren't there.

And at least the first viciously anti-Aedyran NPC you meet can be swayed into liking you before you part ways with them. I've yet to be lectured about anything, either. And you don't have to be nice to that NPC if you don't want to be. There's even justification to treat that NPC poorly if you want, and you won't have to really feel bad about it.

[Energist]

Originally posted by jonoliveira12:

Doubt it, as the colonial nations in Eora are black people and chinese shark-orcs, not white people.

It was black and south American people who sold their own people into slavery , so it seems to check out.

[EntityofDesire]

Originally posted by WarPigeon:

Can you give an example of a game/movie/book that lectures its audience about colonialism? Because obviously there are varying degrees of it, and I think most people would be fine with some amount of criticism of colonialism.

I mean, it's somewhat akin to feudalism in that few people outside of the mega-wealthy have any desire to go back to that system.

No I don't have specific game per an example of this because I've never encountered it before but this article makes it sound like its possible (and would be my first if true). I have experienced games changing or removing elements of "colonialism" such as Age of Empires 3 definite edition due to political correctness (which received a backlash) - but most importantly - I'm asking if THIS game does. Because yes it would be a first and I'm hoping it doesnt - also if your argument is that games never do that - doesnt mean writers cant start doing it.

I'd also argue its (colonialism) just a part of human behavior and to a further extent expansionism by taking over other territories and subjecting their people (or outright destroying them) not only exists today but is literally all of human history. Heck certain leaders want to remove entire populations from the middle east and make a new riveria like a tourist destination - aka taking away other peoples lands and changing them, and the people into their own ends. So its not a lost practice.

As to your point we WILL be colonizing space at some point assuming we dont destroy ourselves before hand - and stepping onto another planet and claiming it as our own will be...well a whole new level of colonialism since humans have a very narrow definition of what life is (ie our perception of the universe, physics and understanding mean we might encounter life we simply do not understand or can't perceive or have the intelligent capacity to comprehend)

BUT im not here or asking to debate ANY of this - i just want to know what the vibe the writers were going for - is just part of the story/setting or are they using it as a platform?

edit: i see its on gamepass soon, so ill guess ill find out soon enough lol.