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I recommend you check out some of the Guides that discuss character creation.
For starters, check in the Alchemy section of this guide...
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=899973393
- Let the skill grow naturally, i.e. let the Ranger do what you think she should do, and do an occasional heal here and an Acid Splash there, and you will finally get something.
- Or you forget about everything your Ranger did before and let her cast, whenever possible, invest 3 points in Alchemy at level up. Casting Light at maximum PL is one of the fastest ways to get Alchemy growing, let the ranger always heal offline, after battle, if she has points left. You will be much faster with the Alchemy, get the magic 15 and start mixing potions. But you risk the balance of your party, because the ranger will neglect her normal duties, become weaker in her standard role, which is-most likely- ranged damage, and the skill increases that go to the ranger now are lost to the others.
There are 50k shades of grey between these 2 strategies, with a result somewhere in between.
If you want to see Alchemy in its full glory, better have an Alchemist in your parties.
In most parties I play, he is a staple. If I go without him, I miss him.
A hybrid can be developed with the two focuses of melee and range and, IMO, it is often very strong to do so, using magic just as support in various ways (like rapidly clearing out large numbers of low-level foes with AOE spells to avoid boredom in game play). I also recommend (for many party types) developing Fighter Characters for both melee and range, believing that the cost of doing that is only a very minimal impact on their awesome, berserk melee capabilities, but that is another story.
It might not seem intuitive for a Ranger to also be a melee fighter, but it works extremely well for him or her to be one, Having a fighting character of any type as only melee or only (physical) range is often not the strongest build and can weaken the potential party strength. Of course it can be argued that characters do not need to be as strong as possible and an experienced player can still win the game... true, but there is not just one way to play. Players should avoid labeling non-traditional characters in other peoples party as "improper" in some way (like a specialist caster with also a fighting ability or a Bard focused on melee in addition to his or her instruments instead of doing physical range fighting at all, for example).
If the only Alchemist in your party is a hybrid, then there is going to be a magic lag... just the way it is. Hybrid characters get no magic whatsoever for the first four levels. Then, at the Level 5, level-up, they get 5 or about 5 in their school (Alchemy in this case). Between that starting level at the Level 5, level-up and 15 is 10 skill points. Scouting (for a Ranger) requires no level-up skill points, so all 9 at the level-ups for Levels 2 - 4 can go to melee and/or range fighting skills.
If at Level 5-7 level-ups 3 is placed into Alchemy and up to 6 into fighting skills, then all that is needed is to earn a single skill increase in Alchemy and the Alchemy skill will reach 15 during the Level 7, level-up. Mixing potions is very powerful and should be done a lot. Even the mixing that is possible at level 15 is sufficient, if continued, to drive the skill (as a side effect of earning money for the party) all the way to 40, when more significant money making mixing can be done and even more at 50. There is, in particular, no reason to put even 1 skill point into Alchemy at level-up after reaching 15 (exception - to accelerate reaching 40 if desired). Also, if at Level 7 the Alchemy is already 13 or 14 then putting no more than 2 or 1, respectively into Alchemy at that level-up might be prudent. The difference can be put into more fighting or some realm skills.
As far as using a hybrid's Alchemy in or between battles (healing) it is up to the taste of the player, but all the mixing that requires up to 50 Alchemy skill will easily drive the Alchemy skill up to 75+, so doing more with Alchemy in battle is an option for a while (until late game resistances are encountered). Alchemy mixing is done outside of combat so it is fair to say that the Alchemy of a hybrid that also does the party's Alchemy mixing is the easiest hybrid magic school skill to raise to high levels early in the middle game, with the least slowing down of fighting skill development through use.
Totally dedicating the character to casting Alchemy spells in every round of combat might bring Alchemy to 15 a level earlier as a choice, as covered above, but levels are pretty quick at that point of the game, a relatively few number of battles before the next level-up, so it is hardly worth it to divert so much focus away from developing Ranger fighting skills through use when just enough for one Alchemy skill increase through use, even just healing after battle, for example, gets the character there by the level 7 level-up rather than as early as the Level 6, level-up using a major focus shift. Treating this magic skill scramble as a minor bump and bringing Alchemy to 15 by the Level 7, level-up is more than sufficient. Stay (IMO), as covered by the post just above, focused on those fighting skills... much closer to the first option (within that gray middle road).
There is nothing wild or crazy about developing a Ranger that way (both melee and range with Alchemy for mixing and as party support). The developers clearly expected that at least some players would do so given all of the Ranger-only equipment (including Sword as well as Bows) provided in the game.
I do not have real recent practical experience with this situation, but I think it is not wise to conclude 1:1 from the progression of an Alchemist to a Hybrid. My reasoning is that skills increase proportionally faster with the governing attributes. For Alchemy these are INT and DEX. While almost any Alchemist will max INT first and DEX only competes with STR, a Ranger will rarely put any points in INT and DEX has competition from STR and SEN. So while the Alchemist proposed in your guide starts with 65 INT and has grown to 83 by Lv 7, a ranger will rather still have 50, and Alchemy skill will grow 16.5% faster just from INT. Adding the effects, that the Alchemist actually only needs 32 and 40 Alchemy to start with real cash generation, + any DEX effect mentioned above, will probably make the journey from 15 to 40 a bit cumbersome and grindy for the Bowie, even if the potions are mixed 1 by 1.
If you have practical experience with this setup, you beat my theory, of course
One additional thing should be mentioned, that the mixing does not only require proper Alchemy, but also an identifier. Most parties will have it in one way or the other, but just to prevent disappointment.
Thank you for explicitly bringing that point out, CC, but actually I have 2 complete recent runs which my comments just before yours are based upon. To also be clear there is no grinding. I detest grinding just for the same of experience or increasing some stat. I bend on this, in my own games and have no judgement against players who desire lots of grinding, as long as they do not claim it is necessary when it is not (an example exception is what you have proven in game play supporting your solo guides).
To be clear, in those (melee/range party) runs with only a Ranger for Alchemy, Strength and Senses were indeed prioritized, just as you say. Nevertheless, the increases happen anyway.
The bending that makes this possible is only that potions are mixed one at a time, instead of piles of 5 at once. It is done to raise money for the many spell books I tend to need to purchase for casters and uber weapons in the late game. After a while the low level potions are made five at a time because the gains from doing them individually becomes trivial (like the potions that can be made at Alchemy of 15 when it has risen to 40 or 50.
This is done by purchasing all the ingredients that can be made into money-making potions, without going too far out of balance (like having 50 of one component that can be mixed at Alchemy Skill of 15 and 0 of the other. That would be way out of balance, IMO. This tends to involve purchasing Cure Lesser Condition potions early and often. Yes that is temporarily unbalanced, but I never regret purchasing them whenever they are available for purchase.
An important note when a Ranger, for example, is the only Alchemist in the party is to know that it is going to take longer to reach the Alchemy level needed to make the best money-making potions. The note is to actually purchase/find 3 or so Cure Disease potions. They are expensive early, especially with so much to purchase, but sometimes it even takes more than one Cure Disease potion to actually cure the disease. Sleeping while diseased or drained is not an option, IMO, due to the permanent consequences of doing so.
Some may find it tedious to mix potions one at a time, but using a three (size of 5 in each) pile system of 2 ingredients and 1 for results (starting with a shift left click to pick up only one at a time from one of the ingredient piles) it becomes routine and fast as an occasional discipline and the resulting money can be used to buy spell books and the few items of quality equipment available early in the game. Money is too important in the early game to neglect unless you feel really, really lucky, or are an expert at playing without it (and having the patience of a saint when it comes to frustration).
Another expensive thing needed, that slows down purchase of spell books, etc., is some Rez powders. Needing those (Rez powders and Cure Disease Potions) is not a matter of luck but rather prudence in anticipation that there will be some tough battles and bad luck, always, sooner or later. Neglect this and Murphy's Law makes the player helpless if or when the need happens.
I agree that the ability to identify the results is vital (or the vendors will rob you if you try to sell something without identification). Unlike when mixing, I almost never identify Alchemy results with less than 5 in the unidentified pile. As designed, I consider the "Identify Item" spell to be one of the most powerful in the game, due to its role complementing Alchemy. Ironically, an Alchemist cannot learn it, IIRC.
Restoration potions are cheaper than Cure Disease potions, and they cure diseases as well. I never needed more than one, and disease is also a rare contraction.
Contrary to common opinion, I observed that draining can be cured any time, after sleeping, level up, and restores the stats completely. Atm this is just an observation from own negligence, not thoroughly researched.
From your tests and confirmation, the Mixing Ranger seems to be a viable build option for parties, who want the sturdiness and melee or ranged capabilities of the ranger without having to forego the mixing capabilities of the Alchemist. With mixed Acid Bombs and a burning spear, she even has some magic capabilities of the Alchemist.
Nice! To be honest, I never compared the cost of Restoration potions or formally verified the stat loss from sleeping when drained. Even as a experienced player who loves to challenge "everybody knows" sort of common knowledge, I still get caught by discovering that some of the things commonly believed are simply false. Thank you for pointing it out.
Edit: Thinking back, I think I recall losing health points permanently from draining, but the memory is a bit fuzzy and I am not certain.
As far as Disease being a rare condition, that changes if the player wishes to extend the game as described elsewhere. Facing lots of Pestulant Rat groups makes that more common. Slimes past a certain point and even the single undead guy always in the Graveyard can cause disease as well (from personal dismay).
Just as you pointed out some "facts" that really ought to be researched and may or may not have validity (with observations saying no), I tend to not invest in character abilities and styles that eventually become ineffective. It is ironic that magic in this game was believed to eventually become ineffective, when nothing about this game could be further from the truth. The problem with thrown items, however, is that they eventually become ineffective against resistances. There seems to be no way in this game to imbue an object with special power against late game resistances, other than what Ninja's auto-penetrate does.
Of course, skipping unnecessary areas like the Retro-Dungeons and other cut corners can result in a game that finishes before that eventual ineffectiveness takes place. This might include magical defense methodologies. Rare enemies, when well above the party level, that cast Level 7 spells at Power Level 7 are brutal. Get just a little behind and it is party wipe. The goal is to render the damage from such spells trivial rather than reduce that damage to zero. In addition to Heal All spells there are Instruments, Gadgets and Amulets of Healing that outpace damage to the party from area-effect spells, if that damage is sufficiently reduced in average effectiveness using magical defenses of one sort or another.
I always play on Expert Difficulty and any suggestions from me are based upon that.
While it turns out that a Specialist Caster (Priest, Alchemist, Psionic or Mage) can be given a single physical fighting ability that can be developed to a decent fraction of what a hybrid provides without significantly negatively impacting their awesome magical capabilities (at least with Power Cast), the reverse is not true and giving a hybrid Power Cast, for example, does significantly impact their physical fighting capabilities. Power Cast comes from maxing Intelligence which is expensive to do for a hybrid (not saying it is wrong or cannot be part of a successful experienced player's party).
Personally, I tend to make hybrids primarily fighting type characters, but that magic can both complement those fighting abilities and can provide temporarily powerful offensive magical capabilities. Several players here have recently demonstrated that using a magical damage focus, possibly including thrown magic, for the early and middle game but then switching to primarily melee, with endgame type weapons, in the late game can be extremely effective.
It can be argued that the hybrid's magic has to be part of the strategy, one way or another, or what is the point of choosing a hybrid rather than just another Fighter or Rogue character for the party. A Fighter is much more capable at melee in particular (especially with an extended weapon) than any hybrid. The other abilities of the non-Fighter character in the party need to be worth the hit to melee capability of not choosing a Fighter character in that character slot within the party.
An exception to that is anything that player finds fun. Fun rules in this game, absolutely
Hope you got a proper answer to your question.
And thank you, mpnorman, for sharing your ideas.
Also, essentially all of my comments were specifically to answer how a hobbit ranger turns into an alchemist, exactly as requested. Adding related comments along the way is part of my personality, I guess
The Flamestryke pages specifically answer the portion of that answer otherwise lacking which is purely mechanical within the game, including specific alchemical combinations that can be made, etc., as pointed out by other players above.
There's good, bad and bad news on this front, Hawkeye! First the good news: All you have to do for your Alchemist to make things is Camp/Rest. You'll see a note in the log something like, "Foobar creates Light Heal!". The bad news is you have no control over what gets made or when. The OTHER bad news is this is a function of the Alchemist profession only. Rangers and Ninjas can cast spells from the Alchemy book and mix potions, but they don't have the ability to create potions during Camp/Rest.
Now I gotta go back and read this discussion!
This is what I believe, too, or something along those lines. I always make a point to cure draining before leveling up. But perhaps it's one of those old, commonly-accepted wisdoms from Wizardry 8 forums of the past. I probably have never once tested this after seeing even one player report it as a problem.
On the other subject that came up, I am a proponent, user, and cheerleader of harnessing the full magic capabilities of hybrid casters. Contrary to what I perceive to be commonly held belief, I think it's actually low, undeveloped skill values that hamstring hybrid casting rather than lack of Power Cast or the -4 caster level penalty. A strong hybrid caster does from 50 to 80 percent of the damage of a dedicated caster in most relevant circumstances--that's enough damage to be worth your while to develop, especially considering all the utility spells you get as a bonus.
However, the melee and ranged combat ability of specialist casters are so great that in the end game--if you develop them--the main advantage a hybrid has in melee and ranged combat is better armor, more hit points, a larger selections of end-game weapons, and usually a special ability or two that contributes. Mpnorman10's "MDP" party guide sticks an Alchemist and a Priest in the front line from the very first step on the beach and it works just fine. You wouldn't want either of them tanking for others, but in a wide front line with three other characters sharing the hits they are fine. The monster AI has no notion of which of your characters are most vulnerable, choosing targets at random instead.
This is interesting. My own direct experience and experimentation on this has mostly focused on what the Specialist Casters can do, rather than what the hybrids cannot do with their magic.
I have been intrigued about this and by what you (HS) say in other threads about hybrid characters magic.
Here is what I know (from experience):
1) The primary usage of magic in a melee/range party is to assist that with disabling spells. These spells are low level and become ineffective later in the game. Most schools do not have any disabling spells at all that are Level 6 or Level 7 spells. AOE instant death spells that are Level 6 and Level 7 exist, but even when layered, these spells cannot be relied upon to effectively wipe out powerful enemy groups (Zerg's experiment). The Level 6 and Level 7 disabling spells in the Psionic school have not been utilized as a focus of any experiments I have seen discussed here or earlier boards.
2) Towards the end of the game (for games lasting up to at least as late as the mid-twenties), a focus on melee, range or magic damage keeps potentially getting stronger with each rising level. My contribution to the magic damage aspect as the main focus involves mostly Specialist Casters, Bards and Gadgeteers, not hybrids.
3) For specialist casters, late game, (with power cast) their magic damage is highly effective against resistances up to 125-150, which, in some realms enemies, at least enemies other then bosses, typically do not exceed. Resistances of 100 or less are actually a vulnerability for that level of offensive magic damage caster.
4) For high resistances (like 200) which are too high, what happens is that some magic damage still gets through, but many enemies at that resistance level receive zero damage from the spell and the ones that are damaged it is so small (like 5 damage when the monster has 400+ hit points or more) that the party using spells like that will be dead before the enemies are. Unless they are bosses, however, there are typically other realms that are not so heavily resisted.
5) The other limiting factor is caster level for which hybrids take a -4 caster level hit and for enemy casters their caster level is the same as their character level. From my experience magic damage as a method for taking out enemies is fully effective for enemies up to about 5 levels higher than the caster level of the party. At 10 levels above the party or more that effectiveness drops to near zero (like zero to fifteen damage when their hit points are several hundred). I would expect, but have not generated rigorous proof, that for hybrids their effectiveness of 50-80% of a specialist (which I agree is very high) will only be reliably effective up to 1 level above the level of the party and would be ineffective at, for example, against enemies 6 or so levels above the party. That can be experimented to determine, but I have not done those experiments formally. Depending upon luck, enemies are often up to five levels higher than the party so this would matter. To be clear I am defining magic damage as successful in the 50-80% of a specialist caster range and unsuccessful if it is more like 5%.
6) Regarding Power Cast, I have experience showing that even a Priest with it in the late game is effective in delivering magic damage (Falling Stars and Lightning). I have not run an experiment about exactly how much of a hit is taken by not having it, at least not for numerous years of game play.
7) I have seen a few hybrids in my parties be ineffective with magic damage spells, but that direct experience was a long time ago. Naturally I have avoided relying upon that in the parties I recommend in order to focus on what would be effective for players following the advice I claim to be effective. This might make my suggestions arguably good ones, but that does not make me a comprehensive and thorough investigator of combat behavior within the game that may or may not be partially effective. I can claim that what I claim works, does actually work, based upon considerable direct experience but when it comes to claims about what does not work or might partially work, I will bow to any players who directly focus upon, experiment and measure that. Also for known formulas many damage levels can be given probabilistic analysis. This can be done whenever exact formulas used in the code are known. Even when their are random factors, as we know there are, expectation values, variances and deviations can still be isolated mathematically, at least according to my graduate level math classes. I am not saying the analysis would be easy. In practical terms, just directly experimenting might be the best way to go.
In particular, I have not created many parties with highly developed magic damage capabilities within hybrids without Power Cast capability. I would be very interested in numbers resulting from such experimentation and I have numerous saved games, level by level, that can be used for some types of comparison if any such results are forthcoming. The levels, caster levels, specific opponents, specific opponent resistances and related skill levels would all be potentially relevant for such experiments.
The trouble with my claim is it's actually not feasible for hybrid skills to be as good as specialist skills without the kind of grinding I don't enjoy. But you can focus on just a few realms in order to maximize potential damage, while unfortunately minimizing flexibility. Monks are the least complicated high-damage hybrids, since nothing could be more practical or simple than focusing on Mental realm. Samurai are arguably next in line--with nothing but Fire and Water a Samurai will have a strong opening salvo of spells before closing to melee. Alchemy can work for hybrids, but it is less obvious what to do: I think Fire and Earth are the best choices. Lords and Valkyries will pretty much never have strong damage spell realms without developing them in an impractical way.
So I think a test that maximizes the hybrids' chance to make a showing would include a Monk, a Samurai, a Mage and a Psionic, where the Samurai and Monk focus on Fire/Ice and Fire/Mental respectively. The Samurai is giving up several excellent spells for endgame relevance, while the Monk is honestly not really missing out. There would still be decisions required about Power Cast though.
In my current party, the Ninja (who has cast a lot of spells but whose magic has been developed haphazardly and without Power Cast) very often does more damage with spells than the combat Priest. But since it is a small party both of them spend most of their time in melee and range combat or casting support spells, cutting into their damage spell potential.
Anecdotally, my party including four Monks played on the Peak like a powerful MDP when their Mental spells could be used effectively.
I also agree that there are times when the -4 caster level penalty is still relevant such that a specialist will sometimes do decent damage while the hybrid almost never does, say when enemies are +5 party level or so. But I want to stress that this can cause even specialists to sometimes whiff.
There's always more to discover!