question about bards and instrument power

[When Can I Sleep]

I noticed that a bard can play all the instruments by level 18 and music 100. Once you reach this are there any benefits to continue leveling in bards? I mean would a higher level bard play the instruments with more damage, duration, or any other, or is it once you can play the instrument, the effect will be the same no mater the bard or music level? Thanks!

[Mardoin69]

So, power level for spells / spellcasters is affected by their class level... along with skill levels. However, with a Bard (or Gadgeteer) it's only affected by their skill level. Obviously, they need to achieve a certain class level to play some instruments but, once they've reached that, all that matters (makes a difference) is their skill level. You're probably asking cuz you are thinking of multi-classing to something else. Yes, go ahead cuz, you've maxed their skill level in Music and can play any instrument. Some people like to class switch them to Fighter and pick up the Berzerk trait.

[When Can I Sleep]

You're exactly right, I have enough levels and music to play all the instruments, and if increasing bard levels does not increase the potency of the instruments in some way, then there is no use for me to stay being a bard

[mpnorman10]

Sorry, but increasing the levels does increase the effectiveness of instruments through the Power Level.

You can see this most easily by comparing your (Gadgeteer or) Bard with a fully developed specialist caster casting the Level 7 spell at Power Level 7. If your (Gadgeteer or) Bard casting the same spell is not usually casting it 70-75% (as measured for example by the average amount of magic damage to all enemies in that round) of the power of that specialist caster then your (Gadgeteer or) Bard is under powered. It is not a crime so do not worry. This can be easily measured using Level 7 magic damage, all-enemies, spells cast at Power Level 7 in the same party against the same foes.

Side note: It should not be surprising that a fully developed (Gadgeteer or) Bard is not quite as effective casting as a specialist caster, due to balance because of the other advantages that (Gadgeteers and) Bards have (better armor, etc.).

The way power levels work for the (Gadgeteer and) Bard is that there is a power level, based upon level within the class, that the spell is generally cast at (not under control of the player). That usual power level increases with level within the class. I recently (roughly) measured this with a Bard rising through levels. The "usual" level is chosen by the AI 70+% of the time. If you, like me, often cast Haste via the Rousing Drums in the first round of battle (if above water) then you can easily track the AI selected power level yourself and watch that "usual" level rise irreversibly as the Bard rises in (Bard) level.

This can be seen easily with lower level spells. For example when the Bard Casts Haste via the Rousing Drums there is a maximum and usual level for the spell (sometimes the Power Level is less but not greater than that).

Raising the Bard to Level 18 does not suddenly enable it to routinely cast Nuclear Blast at Power Level 7. Try it and see.

There were recent comparisons by (experienced) players of Bards kept in the Bard class and those class switched at level 18. You can look that up. Perhaps if one of them reads this they can provide a link.

On the other hand, perhaps a Level 18 bard, under powered as a Bard at level 24 with just 18 Bard levels is enough for your desired game. Players have wanted limiting the class at Level 18 and class switching to be effective since bulletin boards in as early as 2001. If you want to class switch, class switch, just do not claim that there was no cost. By finishing the game at a typical Level 21 for experienced players who cut a few unnecessary corners (not needed to finish the game), it hardly makes any difference at all in the game play and will not be very noticeable.

It matters most when applying techniques (including thoroughness, like new players do) so the game ends in the mid-twenties. It is only at that level that Specialist Casters or Bishops (and Bards and Gadgeteers) approach their full potential (if no class switching) other than it continuing to increase a bit with each added caster level, even after that.

[biogoo]

According to an older topic
(https://steamcommunity.com/app/245450/discussions/0/4540134453717197589/)
the bard levels above 18 still play a factor when using instruments to cast level 6 and 7 spells. Btw if interested, read the whole discussion not just OP, there are some corrections. Yes, I know, it is difficult to read.

TL;DR, if you want 100% from your bard, you actually need to be level 25, so that level 7 spells have a chance to cast at PL7.

[Zergs]

My experience is consistent with MPNorman and Biogoo--Bard spell attack strength continues to scale with Bard levels.

You can also easily test by taking a Bard to level 8 and then dualing to Fighter, and using the Bard/Fighter as your Haste bot. You'll see the Haste casts are pretty weak.

[When Can I Sleep]

Thanks all, @biogoo, the link is blocked due to "the link is flagged as potentially malicious". lol . How can information be malicious. Trump is reading the link? lol. If there are other links, please provide by all means. Thanks

[Michaeas Magister]

Not sure why you would want to dual-class out of Bard anyways and get rid of the camping benefit. It's one of the only reasons I ever even consider a Bard over a Rogue for my lock-picking character slot. That quick regeneration during camping is a nice bonus to the class. :)

Thanks.

[Creep Gnome]

Originally posted by When Can I Sleep:

Thanks all, @biogoo, the link is blocked due to "the link is flagged as potentially malicious". lol . How can information be malicious. Trump is reading the link? lol. If there are other links, please provide by all means. Thanks

It looks like the parentheses screwed up his link, try this:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/245450/discussions/0/4540134453717197589/

[mpnorman10]

That link and Kaymarciy's, Peddroelm's and Biogoo's work to isolate the formula is excellent and deeply appreciated. I used to thrive on things like complex formulas when I was younger, but now I tend to go for a more experimental approach. That can get complex, too, but it is easier and the data is often in a form that players can utilize directly. Often deriving the actual behavior from the formula is difficult to see easily. Probably best is to work with formulas and experiments and then tie it all together. I am not going to attempt that; the below is just experimental.

For example, starting sometime in level 11 (when the particular party obtained the instrument), using Rousing Drums at the beginning of battles, I started watching the Power Level (reminder Haste is a Level 4 spell with Level 8 as a minimum level to cast).

For a portion of level 11 (14 casts):

Power Level 5 - 71.4%
Power Level 4 - 14.3%
Power Level 3 - 7.1%
Wrong Note - 7.1%

For a portion of level 11 and level 12 (24 casts):

Power Level 6 - 70.8%
Power Level 5 - 8.3%
Power Level 4 - 8.3%
Wrong Note - 12.5%

During level 13 (25 casts):

Power Level 7 - 60%
Power Level 6 - 8%
Power Level 5 - 16%
Power Level 4 - 4%
Power Level 3 - 4%
Wrong Note - 4%
Technical Difficulties - 4%

During level 14 (11 casts):

Power Level 7 - 72.7%
Power Level 6 - 9.1%
Power Level 5 - 9.1%
Wrong Note - 9.1%

I pretty much stopped there. Towards the beginning of level 15 there was one Power Level 6 and one Wrong Note out of the first 5 casts (the rest Power Level 7). This was not a formal experiment and is not enough to show everything of interest. I neglected, for example, to write down the Music skill level during this. I was actually just trying to see for myself what the approximate percentages were. The number of casts (battles) per level depends upon several factors not noted including the difficulty of foes and quests completed.

I can confirm that there were exactly zero Power Level 6 and 7 casts in the first group (at Level 11-12) and zero Power Level 7 casts in the second group.

I have not analyzed how these numbers stack up with the formulas. The Music level is "healthy", not made higher with repetitive training or an editor, due to instrument use, but for experimental purposes that is not precise. However, unless repetitive training or an editor are used by the player it is one instance of what a player might typically observe (if using Rousing Drums that way).

[biogoo]

Also I think that the information in the linked thread isn't perfectly correct, as there is always quite a realistic chance to fail, even though the link suggests otherwise. Even though mpnorman10's data may be a small sample, they still show beyond statistical error that a fail chance doesn't disappear just because a bard can attempt a higher power level cast.

For those who read the linked thread:

Acording to the information given, the chance to fail (when allowed to attempt) is 7*PL, and if fails it attempts a PL lower, until success or PL1 fail. But that would pretty much rule out any realistic chance to fail the moment the bard "starts" at PL3+.
So there definitely is some kind of lower bound on fail that isn't directly reflected in the formulas in the linked thread, possibly influenced by level or skill, as a chance to fail a low level music instrument in late game is practically 0, but higher level instruments have much higher fail chance (higher than 7% that "should" be the worst case in case of a PL1 attempt).

There is also another problem. Higher level spells, like Heal All, can have an inherent chance to fail from what kaymarciy reffers to as "channeling difficulty" higher than 15%, at least if attempted at minimum requirements (for Heal All, 11 bard, 60 music). But that breaks the rule that the bard attempts the highest PL with a difficulty of 15% or lower. So there is more to music than just what is given in the thread.

[dwarner]

It's really noticeable going back to Rapax Castle at lvl 24ish and clearing things out with Water Cannon or using Jackhammer on the Peak at lvl 24 and above.

[dwarner]

Originally posted by biogoo:

Also I think that the information in the linked thread isn't perfectly correct, as there is always quite a realistic chance to fail, even though the link suggests otherwise. Even though mpnorman10's data may be a small sample, they still show beyond statistical error that a fail chance doesn't disappear just because a bard can attempt a higher power level cast.

For those who read the linked thread:

Acording to the information given, the chance to fail (when allowed to attempt) is 7*PL, and if fails it attempts a PL lower, until success or PL1 fail. But that would pretty much rule out any realistic chance to fail the moment the bard "starts" at PL3+.
So there definitely is some kind of lower bound on fail that isn't directly reflected in the formulas in the linked thread, possibly influenced by level or skill, as a chance to fail a low level music instrument in late game is practically 0, but higher level instruments have much higher fail chance (higher than 7% that "should" be the worst case in case of a PL1 attempt).

There is also another problem. Higher level spells, like Heal All, can have an inherent chance to fail from what kaymarciy reffers to as "channeling difficulty" higher than 15%, at least if attempted at minimum requirements (for Heal All, 11 bard, 60 music). But that breaks the rule that the bard attempts the highest PL with a difficulty of 15% or lower. So there is more to music than just what is given in the thread.

I tend to use instruments/gadgets when required lvl is 3 lvls below current lvl outside of Rousing Drums and plan visits to areas where I need to use them (Chaos Drone in Shallows for instance) around that.

[Mardoin69]

I stand corrected. I've read several conversations where this was touched upon and guess I misunderstood something along the way. Plus, it's not super noticeable to see any 'progression' on music 'effectiveness' after a Bard's level 18... game doesn't last a lot longer than that usually. So, that probably added to my assumption. Thanks go out to those confirming it does increase 'effectiveness' with additional levels. My bad.

[Michaeas Magister]

Yes, the randomness of both the Music and Engineering skills with respects to their power levels and effectiveness is the main reason why I usually hesitate to take a Bard along and have only tried the Gadgeteer once. After having parties killed by "backfires" from both classes, I will almost always use the Rogue instead for my lock-picking character. I only ever take a Bard along if I have multiple casters in the group as their camping benefit is useful as are the various special equipment pieces they can wear. In such cases, I have found the best way for using a Bard is to only give them buffing/healing instruments as failures with those can not ever backfire on the party. You do notice (or at least I have noticed) a falloff of failures post level 18, so in that sense I can say I have seen improvements keeping them above that level.

Thanks.

[HOK1970]

I had done the class change from Bard to Fighter at level 19 in one of my games and here are my experiences:

1. My Dual Bard / Fighter could play the Infernal Horn (Nuclear Blast) at a maximum of power level 2, even after leveling-up to Level 20 and Level 21 as a Fighter. Of course, this is not very effective for the use of these level 18 instruments. However, my mostly used instruments, such as Rousing Drums (Haste) and Dulcimer of Mending (Heal All) were not negatively affected in the power level even after the class change.

2. My Bard with Bloodlust was much more effective compared to a Dracon Sword Fighter (without Bloodlust) up to about level 15 and was able to show more kills even in melee combat. However, when my Sword Fighter got the opportunity for better weapons (for example Ivory Blade), he caught up more and more in the kills and overtook the Bard in the number of kills, as Bloodlust caused too little damage in the long run compared to the high-end swords. After my Mook Bard changed his class to the Fighter, however, he was able to equip the Giant Sword and then caught up with the Sword Fighter again in terms of kills.
The Giant Sword is the most effective sword for me, as it is the only sword with extended melee range. Due to the strength bonus of the weapon and 2x Ankhs of Might, I still had the maximum strength bonus (STR 125), even if I could no longer wear the Rings of the Road.
In addition, as a bard, the character had already been able to develop a good skill in Sword and Close Combat and then had 2 x attacks with Berserk after the class change.
The fact that the character didn't have 3 swings left (only 2x swings) wasn't so bad, because the Giant Sword still did enough damage.

For me, the class change to level 19 from bard to fighter was worth it, as I hardly used the level 18 instruments of the bard anyway. The bard with Bloodlust is very strong from Arnika to the late middlegame (around level 16), but then loses strength at higher levels compared to other characters (Fighter or Rogue or Hybrids), because his magic doesn't improve much anymore and there is no upgrade to Bloodlust in terms of damage value. Also, the huge advantage of the bard to regenerate spell points 50% faster during a rest is no longer necessary, as long as there is a portal spell to the magic spring to Trynton for quick mana regeneration.

Therefore, I would encourage you to do the planned class change at level 18 from bard to fighter, but there are certainly players who rate the level 18 instruments of the bard in the endgame higher than I do.