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https://steamcommunity.com/app/245450/discussions/0/2274827383931624177/
Berserk attacks always get a penalty.
That said, as far as effiency - Berserk's lower accuracy really doesn't matter (in umodded expert mode) becausse the damage increase means you need fewer lands to hit (I believe there is a thread on how even in the monastery a fighter party ultimately statistically gets through better berserking than not) -- Anyway after your level up enough the stacked effects of raising your charather Dex, melee skill, sword stkill, etc will more than compesate, since the Berserk penalty doesn't scale .
Getting Berserk damage and backstab on the same attack is very nice, although maybe there is an argument that it's overkill and rogue is high damage already and bloodlust could be used to "fix" a bard/gadgeteer w/e in the same party to get 2 high damage dealers instead of a single super high one (which tbh the encounter design doesn't really call for)
Not only does bloodlust give you +6 inititiative and berserk AND +5 sword skill.
It adds +1 attack which it doesn't state in the description. This sword is insanely powerful on anyone who wields it. A lot of people argue against it due to not being able to use ranged or throwing. But on a rogue who can backstab with this sword it is probably the most consistently high damage combo possible? I dunno does anyone have the stats to prove that ivory blade or light sword are better on a rogue? Pretty sure he beats out even a fairy ninja.
I tend to use it on samurai cause I love samurai and having them lightning strike with it on a boss is glorious. Also not many ranged options are good on them and it forces you to plod through their horrible casting level ups by requiring you to use spells at range anyways.
Also ranged it kinda meh unlesss you build for it and is unreliable (dusts/bombs) for the most part. Which a rogue would kind of have to build as their main option. So not having that so you can instagib anything that gets near him is great. But make sure you don't have a melee heavy party or if ya do a few have reach weps.
1. See ceterums post
2. possible reason myles has more accuracy might just be your anecdotal experience? A LOT of this game was called as fact for years due to this.
3. I love dracons just due to their style. Do not pick them for dracon breath though. While flavorful it's not that useful. Mostly cause you would preferably have someone else with aoe or even the dracon with aoe spell/instrument/gadget. And since it doesn't contribute to ANY of the dracons skills it is usually just better to use an attack be it melee/ranged or spell.
I haven't made a dracon rogue but I did a samurai recently. It was a beast but I built him to be one. They have low senses and okay speed. But will have high str for a rogue which is most important stat. Hit that power strike quick and a dracon rogue can take a hit early game but late game will rarely get hit.
Before I show you that there are better weapons for a rogue, let me briefly explain how swings per attack work. Please reffer to peddroelm's mechanics guide for more detail about calculating the maximum amount of swings per attack of a character.
Basically, at the start of the game, every character attacks once per round and swings once per attack. The amount of attacks is irrelevant for this comparison as it doesn't depend on the weapon (OK, there is a slight chance that the +5 to the sword skill from bloodlust will be just enough to push you to the extra attack, but that's a very rare situation that would fix itself after a fight or two after the sword skill increases anyways).
As the character level, speed and skills increase, a second swing per attack becomes possible. This is further boosted by the weapon initiative bonus, which plays a major role. In this regard, bloodlust is really good with +6. But this bonus to initiative only helps to unlock the higher maximum swings per attack, it doesn't increase the chance of actually getting them. This means that fast weapons are great if you are close to the next maximum swings threshold, but if not, then a slower weapon will get the same amount of maximum swings.
But how is the actual amount of swings per attack calculated? Despite what some players believe, extensive tests show that it is in fact simply random, with all possible outcomes having the same chance (at least as long as a weapon is equipped). If a weapon grants a bonus swing (like bloodlust), this bonus swing is simply added to the result.
This means that for calculating the damage per attack, the maximum amount of swings can be used as a multiplier:
With 1 max swing: average 1 swing (+1 with bloodlust)
With 2 max swings: average 1,5 swings (+1 with bloodlust)
With 3 max swings: averge 2 swings (+1 with bloodlust)
This means that a bonus swing from bloodlust results in (2/1)=200%, 2,5/1,5=167% or 3/2=150% damage respectively. As you can see, this effect diminishes as the player achieves higher "natural" maximum swings.
But how is damage per swing calculated? As it turns out, the damage from backstab or berserkering or from hitting an unconscious enemy etc. is simply a multiplier to all damage including strenght bonus. These multipliers stack additively. Btw, if you are wondering why you sometimes see odd damage despite a 2x multiplier, it is because the rounding apparently happens at the end of the calculation.
Damage assuming no other multipliers beside backstab and bloodlust berserk:
With no backstab: x1 (+1 with bloodlust)
With x2 backstab: x2 (+1 with bloodlust)
With x3 backstab: x3 (+1 with bloodlust)
With x4 backstab: x4 (+1 with bloodlust)
This means that backstabbing with bloodlust results in 2/1=200%. 3/2=150%, 4/3=133% or 5/4=125% damage respectively. Once again, it can be seen that the berserk effect diminishes with better backstab rolls. This is then even more noticeable if another damage multiplier is also in play.
Well, with the damage calculations established, it is time to find out how bloodlust performs in terms of average damage depending on the maximum amount of swings and the backstab roll. Bloodlust has base average damage of (5+13)/2 = 9. In case of 1 max swing and no backstab, bloodlust does 200% x 200% x 9 = 36 average damage per attack. This is of course further multiplied by the strenght bonus and also the hit chance, but let's at this point assume these are equal for all weapons. The following table shows average damage of bloodlust (first row) as well as a required base average damage that a weapon without the bonus swing and berserk needs to grant equal or better results (second row).
As you can see, a weapon with average damage around 20 will do just as well as bloodlust in most cases.
Granted, there are not many candidates in the game to beat bloodlust on a rogue (ivory blade is not even usable by rogues). They also cannot be found early, meaning that the whole "1 max swing" collumn is pretty much irrelevant at that point.
1) Fang with average damage of 17 and +2 to hit, +2 to initiative, but also +10 STR and 10% kill
The -4 initiative compared to bloodlust may in some cases result in lower maximum swings. Check the character sheet to find out if a character is losing a swing compared to bloodlust and also don't forget to check it under haste/superman as well.
In cases where equipping fang doesn't lower the maximum swings per attack, fang is actually a better weapon than bloodlust in most cases. The +10 STR, assuming a 100 STR character without superman active, not only effectively increases Fang's average damage by 1, it also further boosts the hit chance by +1. Also the 10% kill is not to be ignored.
2) Light sword with average damage of 22,5 and +6´to hit and +7 to initiative, but also 10% kill as well as very situational 2x damage vs. andriods.
The light sword is of course extremely rare, but if found then it should replace bloodlust without a second thought.
Now, the hit chance. On normal difficulty, +1 to hit boosts the hit chance by 5%. On expert, this drops to 3%, but those 3% on expert are way more precious because the chance to hit is lower. On all difficulties, berserk attack carries a hefty -6 to hit penalty. This means that fang has +8 (+9 when the STR bonus is relevant) effective to hit bonus and light sowrd has +12 effective to hit bonus compared to bloodlust! And that is... A LOT. So even though fang might seem slightly worse than bloodlust in terms of average damage per hit, this is by far not the case once you realize how much more often fang actually lands a hit when bloodlust would miss.
@Biogoo You wrote that very well and like a guide. Here are my questions in detail:
Chance to Hit (Peddroelm's guide 3.7.)
„Formula
CTH = BaseAttackRatting + 5 * ToHit + 5 * Magical/Codition_ARmod + WeaponAttack_AR_MOD + Backstab_AR_Bonus + Combat_Modified_Monster_AC + floor(0.1 * (INT+DEX+SPD+SEN-INT-DEX-SPD-SEN))“
„WeaponAttack_AR_MOD:
Berserk -30
Thrust -10
Throwing -5 // throwing weapons, the slings 'shoot'
Swing, Bash, Shoot 0
Punch +5
Kick -10
Lash +10
Backstab: Provides a +10 to hit (no matter if swing 0 + 10 , Thrust -10 + 10 or berserk -30 + 10 ). The ingame UI will report the Rogue as backstabbing, but the weapon attack mode penalty applies ..“
Is the malus of the Berserk Attack -30 ignored by the Backstab ability and instead always calculates a value of +10 or is counted here -30 +10 = 20? Does a multiple backstab multiply the value of +10?
Did you factor in the Berserk Attack, the Rogue Backstab Bonus on To Hit, when you calculated the -6 penalty?
Damage Calculation:
In the appendix on "backstabbing mechanics" provided by CC, kaymarciy found that the damage detected is ultimately multiplied with the strength bonus. Will the backsab also be multiplied by the strength bonus in the end, as you asked in the discussion?
Max Swings:
Your line-up for the Max Swings is very interesting. A second early attack or a second early weapon swing is a huge advantage. Since the Rogue is usually equipped with dual weapons, the malus for the main hand is usually to be taken into account here. How good or not is Dual Wield in your opinion? I've noticed that you rarely play a character with Dual Wield or a Rogue in your videos. Is there a reason for this?
For the Max Weapon Swings there is no alternative to Bloodlust for the Rogue at the beginning and for long periods of time in the game. Without the Init. Bonus and without the Weapon Skill Bonus from Bloodlust, the Rogue easily lags behind when reaching the 2x swing through the Dual Wield. Fang is not quick to get and on a find of the Light Sword, I don't want to align my game. There are really good swords in the game, but unfortunately they are only late to be found and not all are usable for the Rogue.
You don't need the Dracon Breath for your Samurai because he/she has its magic abilities. The Rogue with Bloodlust would not have a range attack without the Breath.
I played a Dracon Fighter and used the bad breath as a welcome in the first round of combat before going into the melee. The damage was limited, but it worked against a whole group of opponents. In addition, I didn't have to invest in any skill, as the upgrade happened automatically during level-up and the attack was better at dealing with enemy resistance than some spells. So I thought it could work with a Rogue.
Your Samurai is certainly a strong character, which you seem to have developed very well. Just out of curiosity: What ability did you initially increase alongside strength, DEX or INT?
About the Weapon initiative of +6, this is more valuable than a few skill or attribute points, because it adds a whopping 60 to the 100 pts in Peddroelm's formula, which are required to get an additional swing chance, not a real swing. A level is worth 3 pts, a SPD increase 1, a sword increase 1.33, and a increase in cc 0.66. 60 is a lot vs them. On the long run, when everyone has got the chance for a 3rd swing, the +6 of the bloodlust is nothing worth anymore, but until then. I think, if you really want to maximize the chance of swings and or attacks, anyone has to look into his or her entire build, what chances exist. There are situations, when Bloodlust is useful in this respect, and others, where it doesn't do anything.
For those not into numbercrunching, the Bloodlust on a rogue is an excellent weapon at the cost of losing ranged capabilities, so if the enemy doesn't want to come close and the party decides to fight from a distance, the rogue cannot do anything but throw powders and bombs, if equipped.
For damage maximization, a weapon in the offhand needs to be taken into account as well. Here the dual Thieves' daggers are worth to take into consideration, compared with the Bloodlust + Thieves' daggers. It is important, no, maybe of interest to know that a low DW skill actually gives a malus on the calculation formula for additional attacks and swings.
So the next options need to be taken into this example:
Bloodlust (Close Combat, Sword)
Bloodlust + Thieves Dagger (Close Combat, Sword, Dagger and Dual Weapons)
Thieves Dagger + Thieves Dagger (Close Combat, Dagger and Dual Weapons).
Thieves Daggers appear a bit later in the game than Bloodlust, I think from Lv12 onwards.
Here a list of some other Swords a rogue can use. Daggers are irrelevant, their damage is simply too low.
Blade Cuisinart (avg dam 14, +2 to Hit, can only drop from the King's chest in Rapax Castle)
Fang (17, + 2 to Hit, other bonuses, set drop)
Saint Bastard (12, +2 to Hit, sold by Ferro)
Sword of Hearts (10, +2 to Hit, random drop in Mt. Gigas)
Vorpal Blade (11, +2 to Hit, random drop in several areas and chests)
Thieves Dagger (9.5, +2 to Hit, sold by Antone)
In conclusion: LS is the best weapon by far, but drop chance is low, Fang is second best on the long term, Bloodlust is mostly the better weapon, when stats have not been maxed, but it excludes mostly ranged combat on the char who uses it. There are some alternatives which come close to Bloodlust in the endgame due to its diminishing returns, and allow ranged combat.
The last aspect is the composition of the party. Depending on the needs of other chars in a party, the total optimum may lead to different allocations of the highend weapons.
One thing is for sure. The Bloodlust is definitely endgame capable and will do its duty until a glorious ascension. Whether it is the best weapon for a rogue depends on a lot of factors, which go beyond the weapon stats.
One additional factor to also consider when determining where to put Bloodlust in a party with both (or potentially either) a Bard and Rogue is the ease with which the Bard is able to have 125 Strength (just by wearing always-available Bard-only items). That 125 Strength gives 150% to damage ((125 -50) x 2%) which multiplies the berserk bonus for an average damage of 45 (25 - 65) per swing, not including the backstabbing analyzed above. Even underwater the Bard (with maxed natural Strength) potentially has this bonus, while a character depending upon Ankhs of Might for +10 Strength each can only wear one of them under water. Similarly the Gadgeteer is easy to get and keep at 120 Strength.
The opportunity cost for that Strength above 100 is that the Bard could potentially wear slightly higher AC items (that give better AC but do not improve attributes), but if using a Shield (potentially +6 AC) with Bloodlust and achieving Reflextion in time for it to reach 20 (+2 AC) or even 40 (+3 AC) the Bard AC is fine even when wearing all the early game Bard-only items throughout the entire game.
The bonus from backstab is irrelevant for the comparison as it applies to every attack with every weapon.
Yes, as it seems it is a simple multiplication of all factors (I don't know what factor multiplies first but that doesn't change the result).
In the past I and others believed that the strenght bonus only applies to the weapon damage due to the fact that you could see even damage numbers on a 2x backstab/berserk, but that is just an effect of rounding last.
I think dual wield is not good enough because there are no good off-hand weapons that justify the hassle. Thief's dagger gives rogues a dual-wielding edge but in the end the weapon is not that great and also not a sword. Attacking enemies with two different weapons dillutes skill training among 4 skills. Attacking with weapon+shield focuses the training on 2 skills, doubling the training efficency.
Dual-wielding also penalizes attack rating as well as number of attacks and swings. It takes a lot of dual-wielding training to make up for those penalties. Late game dual-wielder can swing his main weapon as well and as often as if he was not dual-wielding, but all he gains from it are some swings with the weak off-hand weapon.
Yes there are few and in between worthy off-hand weapons DPS wise (poor samurai), but condition inflicting wise the situation is a little better ..
Bloodlust is quite easy to "uncurse" for a bishop with his ability, also on Expert. On the other hand, SoD is quite hard, in my games it only worked with the spell. I suspect "remove curse" as bishop ability is related to Identification via Artifacts skill (source Flamestryke):
Bloodlust 30
Thieves Dagger 54
SoD 96
I do not know, whether difficulty level plays a role. Personally I would say no, because Artifacts doesn't have a difficulty modifier as well.
This is just observation and guessing and I do not know the math.
I believe you are right about that. My current bishop has 124 Artifacts and I have used the innate ability to remove the SoD many times, and I'm playing on Expert, and it has never failed.
I can attest that while the Bloodlust is amazing, the damage doesn't compare to backstabbing with the *Light* *Sword* once it's available. Extra swings are very common due to the weapon's initiative bonus. Damage of 1,000+ every combat turn has not been uncommon for my rogues by endgame, dual-wielding the sword and the Thieves Dagger. But...it can be a double-edged sword. I find myself praying on AP that the rogue doesn't turn against my party - if I have a fighter, they have a moderate chance of survival, but anyone else is almost guaranteed to meet the reaper. But that adds to the excitement I guess.