Bishop's spell progression. How does it work?

[Occult Fuzzball]

Howdy! First time playing Wizardry.... -anything- in fact. made myself a party that I thiiiink is decent? One of the characters I made was a Bishop. Now, having reached level 7 on her , I'm a little confused. How does the Bishop's spell progression work? I'm barely seeing any sort of changes in the available spell lists. I only just started to see new spells pop up for level-up choice when I reached levels 6 and 7, and those were in the Divinity and Psionic schools.

What about the others? I'm abstaining from alchemy, but what about water, fire, and wind? I'm quite confused, as I don't know entirely what's triggering new spells to pop up for selection in any of them.

[Zergs]

How high are your spellbook skills? For example, to learn the 3rd level Knock Knock spell, you need at least 30 points in Wizardry or Alchemy as well as Bishop level 5.

Alternatively, you can get away with a few points less in Wiz or Alch if your Earth realm skill is very high. 10 points of a realm skill substitutes for 1 point of a spellbook skill in meeting spell learning requirements.

To get a maxed out Bishop, you need to be diligent about raising all four spellbook schools. Realm skills (earth, air, fire, water, mental and divine) go up really easily by just using a variety of spells. I like Bishops and I'm willing to spend time grinding them. My preferred method is pumping Wizardry to 30 first, and using Knock Knock to grind Wizardry and Earth high. 2nd highest is Psionics, which I get to 15 and pump up using Divine Trap/Identify. This also pumps Mental super high.

I raise Alchemy mostly by mixing potions. If I keep Alchemy 2nd, I can raise it by healing also, but Psionics tends to overtake it quickly through Divine Trap grinding. I raise Divinity by casting Bless, Armorplate, Guardian Angel and Magic Screen, and once I have Heal All, I stand in the fire in the Arnika crash site and cast it over and over. That grinds it pretty fast.

[CeterumCenseo]

Very basically, as a bishop you get L1 spells from 4 spellbooks (divinity, wizardry, alchemy, psionics).

At L3 already, you get access to L2 spells from spellbooks provided you have 15 skill in q book, so L2 divinity spells, if you have 15 skill in divinity and so on.

the realms do (almost) not matter for spell eligibility, all books use spells from all realms.

At L5 of bishop, you get access to L3 spells from spellbooks provided you have 30 skill in a book.

At L8 L4 spells with 45 skill,

At L11 L5 spells with 60 skill.

At L14 L6 spells with 75 skill.

At L18 L7 spells with 90 skill.

A bishop gets 2 spells at the beginning of the game, and one spell at each level up. Additional spells can be found or bought from vendors. In total there are ~100 spells in the game, making a well designed bishop very flexible and powerful.

Skill is improved by using spells, so use them liberally, I tend to use up all my spell points in every battle, and get them back by sleeping.

The manual explains which book offers which spells, what they do, and how much mana they cost per power level.

[Occult Fuzzball]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

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Originally posted by Zergs:

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Well darn! I had expected it to be something like D&D's spell progression, in that you gain access on a more level-based basis.

At level 6 (almost 7) I've got Wizardry at 19, Divinity at 16, and the other spellbook skills at levels varying from 9-14 (maybe 1 is at 15). Am I screwed, or did I just temporarily gimp myself? I admit I didn't know entirely what I was doing. Should I reroll, or no?

[vysionier]

It’s A very temporary gimping. Just use the spells you do have and the skills will raise. On level up place a focus on raising your spellbooks

[Zergs]

Originally posted by Narias-Vol:

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

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Originally posted by Zergs:

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Well darn! I had expected it to be something like D&D's spell progression, in that you gain access on a more level-based basis.

At level 6 (almost 7) I've got Wizardry at 19, Divinity at 16, and the other spellbook skills at levels varying from 9-14 (maybe 1 is at 15). Am I screwed, or did I just temporarily gimp myself? I admit I didn't know entirely what I was doing. Should I reroll, or no?

You're definitely not gimped. You just need to focus on using lots of spells, with as high of power as you can safely cast. Raise Intelligence for sure, and possibly Piety. These will make your spells more powerful once you unlock Power Cast (there's a riddle at one point in the game that will give you +5 permanent intelligence, so don't raise Int above 95), extra mana from Piety, and will increase the rate at which you grow skills. I have no shame in grinding, so if you're willing to grind, any bad growth can always be fixed.

Also, it does work like D&D's spell progression. In 5e (and 2e, incidentally), a mage or cleric needs to be level 5 in order to cast 3rd level spells. Wizardry is actually exactly the same--you need to be level 5 as a mage, priest, alchemist, psionic or bishop to use level 3 spells. Wizardry just has a second requirement--in addition to class level, you need a minimum number of points in the governing skill as well.

Wizardry is actually a combination of a level-based and skill-based system, whereas D&D is mostly level-based. Wizardry's multiclassing system actually works identically to D&D's 3e/5e multiclassing system. None of this is surprising as most old RPGs borrow heavily from D&D anyway.

[mpnorman10]

One general note, Narias-Vol, in Wizardry 8, slower developing does not mean a more powerful character in the early, middle or endgame. Unless you have a specific party strategy otherwise, fast developing characters (which are also strong in the middle and endgame) are a better choice when starting out.

Nobody here will get in the way of any character choices you choose to make, but some choices will most definitely lead to frustration and a tough game, even for experienced players.

Every character within Wizardry 8 is potentially incredibly powerful, but that is strongly dependent upon how they are created, developed, used in a party and the style of play with that party.

I hope you enjoy this wonderful game as much as we do.

[Horpner Sneed]

It's hard to develop a Bishop until you understand the game systems better than one normally does when first picking up the game. You can either follow a Bishop guide, or do something else instead. These days I take a Bishop only when I don't feel my party works well without one. On the bright side, it's possible to play and succeed with parties that have glaring weaknesses, but it might not be what you're in the mood for.

[Migromul]

Possibly I'm wrong, but don't get Bishops spells 1 level later than the "pure" casters? e. g. when a wizard needs level 3 for level 2 spells, a Bishops needs level 4? Perhaps this is only true for highter level spells (3 and up, possibly 4 and up?) But I'm pretty sure, I'm right here...

AND: Bishops need the most xp for level-ups. (on par with Ninjas afaik.

Edit: the BIG advantage is, that you have a second char avaiablel against undead (IF you also have priest in your party, which I strongly recommend...) So you don't need 2 priests for that. Bishops also can uncurse without a spell, which is very handy. But the slow leveling is very annoying imho.

[vysionier]

Bishops get spells at the same progression as specialist casters. They need more exp though. So they’ll be about a level lower through most of the game.

[CeterumCenseo]

+1

additionally:

check flamestryke's exp chart for details about level progression.

More effects causing slower bishop progression vs specialist casters (alchemist aso):

Specialist casters get 25% bonus on their book, so a Wizard only needs 30x0.8 = 24 skill in Wizardry school to get L3 spells, L5 (edited!) is got at 48 instead of 60 and so on. Bishop needs 30 respecively 60.

Skill increase by using a skill is only for the book with the highest skill, and the bishop's spells are spread out among the different schools and themes (=buff, restore, damage, crowd control), so while every spell cast by a Mage will get rolls of Wizardry skill increase, skill increases for a bishop will be spread out over all the books, which means any book will get less increases compared to a mage.

Slower progression is justified by balancing the classes vs each other. If bishop got the same progression as specialist, those would be useless. The developers did a very nice job in that respect; there is no "useless" class in the entire game.

[Horpner Sneed]

A Bishop who maximizes and uses just two books seems to be something most players are able to do without much pain or elaborate planning and training. More books than that and more players start jumping off the bandwagon, as things start to get fiddly. The ultimate argument (not a new argument) against Bishops (and all hybrids, really) is there's still only one action possible per turn no matter how many skills a character has mastered. This is why I use Bishops to fill in book gaps. Bishops have other benefits that usually go unmentioned but make them convenient companions: Artifacts mastery, their ability to remove curses, and relatively good itemization.

[Horpner Sneed]

The slow level progression of Bishops and Ninjas is--a big pain. I hate having to fiddle around and grind even longer before Crock's best items show up, for example. This happens at several break-points in the game.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by Horpner Sneed:

The slow level progression of Bishops and Ninjas is--a big pain. I hate having to fiddle around and grind even longer before Crock's best items show up, for example. This happens at several break-points in the game.

Hey, do you remember when the level break point was for the good stuff? Was it lvl 11? I can just never remember.

[daenoth]

If you are patient you can raise some spell schools and realms by casting spells out of combat. Light, knock, charm, armorplate etc. are all good options for this.

[mpnorman10]

Remember, you can only cast one spell per round of combat. Variety of spells has value, but that has to be weighed against lack of bonus and slower leveling.

If the variety is absolutely necessary then that is it. If alternatives that meet all party requirements exist, it might be wise to consider them.

Bishops are potentially great but it is not just assigning some guys to your party when you are choosing Bishops and Ninjas for it, you need to be a concert virtuoso. Such characters have some pretty major weaknesses you need to compensate for and design through by turning them to your advantage (and strengths you need to strategically take advantage of). If you are that virtuoso and think your designs through then great but recognize it is your own choices that form your experiences.

Of course trial and error is not a bad way either. You can play a half dozen or two levels into a hundred games and there is no extra charge.