The can of worms

[raystevens73]

So this may have been covered 100 times already but I haven't seen anything on it. I know about using different races to have more stats where I want them etc etc, but the big question is:

Human race gets a total of 375 stat points in all classes without any resistance bonus

All others have some resistances with some being negative at the cost of stat points, up to 15 or 2.5 levels worth.

It would take 54 levels counting the Trynton fountain gain to max all on Human which is not possible so we all know to focus on certain stats.

So is the gain of resistances really worth the stat loss? To me the only one that feels viable is the Faerie casters which get +15 in 3 realms and 35 in mind due to armor with faster magic recovery. I know there are some bonus items only used by certain races, some easy to get get, others not so easy. Those aside, is stat placement the only good reason to use others?

Edit: I forgot version 1.2.4 so the bottom I have seen but did try all classes in my counting is 360 and Hobbits max at 370.

[Zolaerla]

It's more about the places the stats are in. Humans get 315 points before the 60-point bonus, but so do Hobbits oddly enough. Felpurr and Rawulf get 305, and everything else gets 300.

But what if you're making just a pure fighter? A Lizardman looks really appealing, because they really don't care about INT, PIE and care less about SEN than the other stats, so they have an advantage over other characters.

Or you want that Dracon breath ability all of the time on a combat character?

Or maybe you want the damage absorption of Dwarves (up to 10% with 100 VIT)? They make interesting Monks even if their stats are kinda bad for it.

etc. It's these sorts of trade offs that make things interesting!

[vysionier]

I agree with zolaerla on that, just want to add a couple things: hobbits actually get 310 before the 60pt bonus, but hobbits have a far superior placement of stats compared to a human for non-magic or specialist caster classes. Humans are my go-to race for most hybrid classes however.

That said, for most race/class combos, nothing is really so bad that you can’t complete the game with it. Even terrible combinations have their advantages as well.

[raystevens73]

I'm sorry but both of you missed the top question.

So is the gain of resistances really worth the stat loss?
I use others all the time for stat placement.

[Zolaerla]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย vysionier:

hobbits actually get 310 before the 60pt bonus

Not sure what version of the game you've been playing. They have:
Str: 40
Int: 45
Pie: 30
Vit: 45
Dex: 55
Spd: 50
Sen: 50
Total: 315

[Zolaerla]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย raystevens73:

I'm sorry but both of you missed the top question.

So is the gain of resistances really worth the stat loss?
I use others all the time for stat placement.

That depends on what your goal is. If you're like me building teams that get to 100 in every resistance without Soul Shield and Element Shield, the attributes are way less important.

[vysionier]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Zolaerla:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย vysionier:

hobbits actually get 310 before the 60pt bonus

Not sure what version of the game you've been playing. They have:
Str: 40
Int: 45
Pie: 30
Vit: 45
Dex: 55
Spd: 50
Sen: 50
Total: 315

Hobbits do not have 45 int. I play vanilla. They have 40 int.

[vysionier]

The resistance bonus is not worth the stat gain unless you use them for a very extreme build just so you don’t need to cast soul shield or element shield.

That said, as explained earlier, the varied stat distribution is indeed worth it for certain classes.

[Zolaerla]

OMG... the manual is wrong!?! Just checked, yes, it's wrong.

Well crap, I hope I don't have to double check all of their freakin' numbers for my own manual. *fixes everything*

Here's a capture of the page in the manual:
http://junk.zolaerla.com/Image/W8Hobbit.png

"To tell you the truth,' replied Gandalf, 'I believe that hitherto... he has entirely overlooked the existence of hobbits....

[vysionier]

If you want a mostly accurate comparison, I recommend going to flamestrykes wizardry 8 site and looking at the character development section. If there’s a discrepancy with what you have you can check in the game yourself, that would save time having to check everything.

[Zolaerla]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย vysionier:

If you want a mostly accurate comparison, I recommend going to flamestrykes wizardry 8 site and looking at the character development section. If there’s a discrepancy with what you have you can check in the game yourself, that would save time having to check everything.

I've used that site about a bajillion times, and have found MANY inaccuracies in it as well when making my docs, as well as various other sources. I've been disassembling parts of the game for more details. It's been a load of work. It's just always annoying finding one source that you assumed was reliable, like the game's own manual, and finding out it isn't as reliable as you had hoped.

[raystevens73]

Ok so I found an old save from 3 years ago, solo Faerie ninja that I used a hex editor to try out items I had never got in the game. All stats set to 125 and resist is 58 for fire/water, 73 for air/earth, and 95 for mind/divine so you would still need shields and items to help this along. We are always going to go for those items that help in those areas and use magic or items for those shields. Bottom line is it's all about placement of the stats and I was just wondering if it would be more beneficial to have those extra stat points.

[vysionier]

Ah, gotcha. Yeah I only really use the site for stat comparisons and as a refresher on items. It has such a handy system for comparing stats.

[vysionier]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย raystevens73:

Ok so I found an old save from 3 years ago, solo Faerie ninja that I used a hex editor to try out items I had never got in the game. All stats set to 125 and resist is 58 for fire/water, 73 for air/earth, and 95 for mind/divine so you would still need shields and items to help this along. We are always going to go for those items that help in those areas and use magic or items for those shields. Bottom line is it's all about placement of the stats and I was just wondering if it would be more beneficial to have those extra stat points.

Resistances just aren’t a consideration for the vast majority of the players. A level 5 priest gets magic screen, and a lvl 8 priest gets soul shield. A lvl 8 mage gets element shield. So at lvl 8, resistances basically don’t matter at all. Go ahead and grab those stat points?

[Reality]

I feel like in wizardry 8, the only serious mid/lategame enemy mages use water and mental.

I've definitely been donked by tidal wave.

I'm unsure about the value of mental resistance though because status effects rely more on a level difference formula than the damage formula.

In wizardry 6/7 the enemy distribution is different (much more fire)

[dwarner]

I like resistances.

Endgame design is a general bane I've found across all games. Most of the game is played (and usually the hardest part of the game) before the end is reached. There's also some race specific items and usually a race is going to be faster to unlock a key elite skill (important to get it leveling up ASAP).

For variety (and effectiveness) I use six different races during party creation, and about half the time no humans.