party members leaving?!?

[beluga25]

I suppose the real answer to my question will be I'm just too old/stupid to understand much anymore. Okay then, so be it.

But being a boomer and having played RPGs since the 80s and FINALLY getting around to this reputed best of them all, I have to admit to being puzzled. If anyone can explain this to me, great. If not, see line one.

To me, one of the supposed great pleasure of an RPG is to lovingly curate your characters/party. Build them up slowly, carefully (or carelessly and thoughtlessly, it's a game!) and wind up with a winning formula that optimizes their performance and maximizes your fun.

So I've done Umpani stuff, killed Don Barlone, cleared out the Trynton breeders, none of the T'Rang quests and am ready to approach the water caves. Fine, next chapter in our little adventure--onward! Except for Vi, my valkyrie who could be my most valuable RPC--decent melee, good healer, identifies everything and provides soul and magic shields--decides it's backwards, not onwards, for her. She runs away! As does my gadgeteer, leaving me with a reaction of "What the actual eff.....?!?"

What is the point of all the grinding/leveling I've done only to find out, on searching, that most of these RPCs won't go to the most dangerous places with you?? I read the Android Monk will go almost everywhere, but upon recruiting him I discover he's Level 10. Um, as a result of the aforementioned grinding, the rest of my party is 16-18. This supposed melee master regularly misses 3 martial arts strikes in a row against mobs my level or higher.

I'm sorry, I just don't get this. Why did I spend all this time managing things just to have the RPG rug pulled out from under me? I've seen a few games where in a fun/surprise plot twist one of your party is taken away for a while. But nothing approaching having your best characters taken away for the most difficult parts of the game, only to be offered weaker replacements that mostly don't want to follow you either.

So did the teleportation thing and am now running around with a Vi with everything reduced 20 points and an underleveled android monk.

Tried d/l a character editor to fix Vi but had various problems with it and gave up.

What am I missing here?

[Zergs]

The RPC zone restrictions can be modified in Cosmic Forge.

But no, you're not missing anything. The decision to restrict RPCs from so many zones is baffling. Not sure what the developers were thinking.

Vi is still a good choice, though, as she'll go the final zone with you and has unique dialogue. And RFS being 6 levels behind will matter less over time as the XP needed to gain levels keeps increasing. Eventually he'll catch up to be 1-2 levels behind.

[beluga25]

Thanks for the answer! Yeah, I noticed Cosmic Forge. Wondered if I'd spend more time trying to make it work/tweaking it than actually playing the game, lol. But I think that's the appeal of stuff like CF to many folks, all the modding and messing around you can do, haha.
Good on them. I think I prefer game play over the modding scene, but perhaps that could /should change, lol!

Thanks again.

[Zergs]

@beluga - to clarify, it's possible to just remove the zone restrictions and change nothing else in Cosmic Forge. Many do that to make the RPCs more usable.

And, I quite enjoy Vi's hexed dialogue :)

[Abscondrel]

you can get them into those places, and they expected you to do that. cuz they complain constantly. many of us dont use the rpc's other than for special purposes.

[beluga25]

Originally posted by Zergs:

@beluga - to clarify, it's possible to just remove the zone restrictions and change nothing else in Cosmic Forge. Many do that to make the RPCs more usable.

And, I quite enjoy Vi's hexed dialogue :)

Haha, well, I've just started hearing it but, yeah, I think the snarky attitude might be a welcome break from the prior oh-so-virtuous piety!

And apparently it may not take much, but I think you've convinced me to try a closer look at CF. If that's true about zone restrictions it should be worth the time. I'm running updated Win10, will have to check which version of W8 I have. I actually have the CD in a box but am using a Steam install. Don't even remember how that all came about, but hoping everything plays well together.

Oh well, won't be my first rabbit hole, haha............

[beluga25]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

you can get them into those places, and they expected you to do that. cuz they complain constantly. many of us dont use the rpc's other than for special purposes.

Yes, Zergs mentioned Vi's new dialog that I've just started hearing and may be a good change from her previous bland piety, lol.

Now after the fact I can see why experienced players would selectively use the RPCs, but as a true "virgin" W8 player it was shocking in a first-world problem sort of way to out-of-nowhere have Vi suddenly run away. Despite her somewhat generic/mundane mutterings she was a valuable member of the party and I really liked her. So this has all been different/interesting, any other considerations notwithstanding.

Think I'll go ahead and give the CF zone restriction thing a try and see what, if anything, I come up with.

So abscondrel, thank you too--appreciate the input.

[beluga25]

Omg, wow, lol!

D/l CF and actually didn't have to do much directory finding, dll installation, etc. Checked on a different Steam post about how to get going and just removed the zone restrictions under RPC parameters.

Loaded a previous save, went into Bayjin again and she gave the same dialog about when she was a kid, blah blah but continued on with no stat reductions. Fantastic!

TY Zergs!

[Shadowdweller]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

you can get them into those places, and they expected you to do that. cuz they complain constantly.

And take a massive penalties

[Horpner Sneed]

The permanent hex is not so bad on Vi in my experience, but on Madras it's crippling. When dragging RPC's where they don't want to go I cast Superman on them to at least counteract the attribute penalties. There's nothing you can do about their lowered skills, unfortunately, and hit to Madras' Engineering is pretty bad.

I second the plan to use Cosmic Forge to remove some or all of the area restrictions. I've worked around them for years, but I don't think they ever worked the way the designers intended. There's just not enough benefit to traveling with an RPC for a short while and then letting them leave.

It does make great story sense for them to refuse to go underwater or into deadly Rapax areas. I wish there were quests to unlock their restrictions--build up their loyalty.

[beluga25]

Originally posted by Horpner Sneed:

The permanent hex is not so bad on Vi in my experience, but on Madras it's crippling. When dragging RPC's where they don't want to go I cast Superman on them to at least counteract the attribute penalties. There's nothing you can do about their lowered skills, unfortunately, and hit to Madras' Engineering is pretty bad.

I second the plan to use Cosmic Forge to remove some or all of the area restrictions. I've worked around them for years, but I don't think they ever worked the way the designers intended. There's just not enough benefit to traveling with an RPC for a short while and then letting them leave.

It does make great story sense for them to refuse to go underwater or into deadly Rapax areas. I wish there were quests to unlock their restrictions--build up their loyalty.

Horpner, good thoughts. It's really interesting to get different people's perspectives. Story-wise yes, their refusal makes sense,but I'd prefer they not be sensible but rather be crazy so I could maintain my party, lol! But, yes, quest unlocking would have been a better way to go.
I can't imagine they didn't consider that but I suppose budget might have been the obstacle--didn't they go under not long after the W8 release?

Yup, Madras was one of my characters that ran away. But like I said, it's good to get others' input--your idea to use 'Superman' on him or Vi to at least help a little hadn't even occurred to me. Thanks for the feedback!

[mpnorman10]

Since the earliest forums after game release players have expressed their dismay over the limitations of the RPCs, their area restrictions, sometimes pointless items they insist on carrying and the lack of intelligent design and development in terms of attributes and skills, even though they get extra of both.

This can be viewed as a classic "Glass half full" or "Glass half empty" scenario. Clearly, RPCs were considered by the designers to join the party for a while for certain quests or to add color to the story. They were not intended to be part of a core of 8 characters taking on the game universe.

On the other hand, this game does provide for 6 characters that are fully choose-able, design-able and which can be developed in a number of ways ranging from the obvious to highly creative and party-specialized. As a 6 character full party game where RPCs are regulated to temporarily joining the party for specific quests, that game is 10/10. As an 8 character party (without cosmic forge modifications) wherein 2 of the 8 characters have the restricted behavior and other defects of creation/development, the game is maybe a 5/10.

The recommendation is to play the 10/10 game of parties of up to six characters, well designed and focused to take on the often easy but sometimes highly challenging Wizardry 8 game universe. Do not try to make RPCs into something they are not. If not taking this recommendation, however, then yeah, I agree with the others above that modifying the nature of RPCs in the game via the Cosmic Forge can remove the crippling curses and rude complaining (by the unhappy RPC) that most players hate.

Keep in mind, however, that even when these modifications (or putting up with the RPC complaints and cursed status) might make the RPC an integral part of ones party, the RPC will never (in this game) be a fully party member that is designed and development-planned even before the first battle on the beach.

As far as wanting a Wizardry game that allows a full 8 creatively chosen, designed and developed characters in the party, the W8 universe is not really designed to be difficult enough for that. We are really, if that is desired, talking about a different, Wizardry 8 type game that is designed for 8 character parties.

Out of the 50 core games that should have been created following Wizardry 8 to celebrate and further develop the excellent design of it, certainly there would have been at least one or two that allowed for and was designed for in terms of difficulty and play-ability, 8 character parties.

Instead the fun of specialized characters within a full carefully designed, well-balanced party has been neglected or entirely nerfed by the vast majority of subsequent RPGs. TV shows and movies still create exciting shows based on well balanced, highly effective teams of high-quality individual specialists, but the gaming industry has mostly abandoned this core formula for success, or at least no longer allow players to do the team designing.

The usual reason for this abandonment is that it is "too hard" and can lead to total failure. Well, yeah, but without the possibility of failure all success is no more than canned illusion.

[TekWarrior]

IMHO a lot of the NPC limitations and design flaws are from the lack of development time.
I believe that with further development time and quality control by players these issues would have been addressed. I suggest there were NPCs with quest-lines supposed to be near the places where the regular NPCs refused to go. It was supposed to a revolving set new characters joining and leaving your group but the execution was poor and buggy.

Originally posted by shadowphoenix:

Hello,

There has always been some speculation to the fact that Myles was supposed to be THE toon to give to Al-Seduxus. Implying that it is a broken quest line that the developers did not finish in time. This seems likely when you consider Sir-Tech went bankrupt before finishing the game.

As far as best rpc's go....I like the alliance quest guys. They go with you every where and will not be hexed. The only 2 issues is that you don't get them early and you can't complete the alliance quest if you want to keep them.

Prior to them, I usually go with a combination of Vi, Saxx, Sparkle, RFS-81, or Glumph (he does not have as many limitations as some of the others and works well with a mage party).

@bscoms
If you want a fighter for the Rapax areas you can take Glumph.

Happy Hunting

They wanted players to experiment professions that the player had not considered in their parties but at the same time be open to drop and take different NPCs in special situations.
The rescue missions require you to be open to drop your current NPCs to make room for (GLUMPH, DRAZIC, and RODAN)

There's a important story related point to Vi that I won't be specific about but I highly suggest you consider replacing her or consider her slot empty when it matters the most.

Because NPCs leech from your parties experience and many of the NPCs stat layouts are poor I would consider them mostly flavor. Experience their dialog but be sure your team can succeed without their services.

[Horpner Sneed]

One of the RPC's is a defacto permanent member: RFS-81. He has no important restrictions on where he'll go. He doesn't even need to breathe!

Two of the RPC's will follow you to the peak: Vi Domina and Saxx.

Glumph, Rodan and Drazik have very few restricted areas, but they are quest RPC's--you need to leave their quest undone to keep them in your party.

The rest of the the RPC's are so restricted as to be virtually unplayable as permanent members.

I agree with mpnorman10 that you don't need any of the RPC's to succeed at the game. They make the game easier.

On the other hand, I think RPC's can add to the complexity and strategic options of designing a party. Allowing for more RPC options adds to the fun, potentially.

Here's what the manual says about them--new players who read it are forewarned! It is definitely working as designed based on this. I really appreciate the flexibility to break most of the rules--it's even pretty funny sometimes.

Originally posted by Wizardry 8:

Recruit
Some NPCs might be willing to join your party for a while. Click “Recruit” to
ask them if they’d like to come along. If the NPC is willing to join your
party, he or she will do so right away. If not, they’ll politely thank you for
the invite (or just laugh in your face.) Other NPCs might join you under
special conditions, such as when you get a bit of experience under your
belt or when you’ve been able to solve a problem that’s keeping them close
to home.
When NPCs join your party, they become RPCs (Recruitable Player
Characters.) RPCs are full-fledged, card-carrying members of your party, but
there are few things to keep in mind:
〈 RPCs aren’t your slaves. They may leave your party whenever
they wish. (They’ll give you your items back before they leave,
though.) RPCs become especially upset if you attack their friends.
〈 RPCs are generally happy to share their gear with the rest of the
party. However, they may have a personal item or two that they
refuse to part with.
〈 RPCs generally know lots about areas you might be entering, so
they’re often good to have along as guides.
〈 At most, you can have two RPCs in your party at any one time. If
you already have two and want to recruit another, you’ll have to
dismiss one first. To dismiss a RPC, open his inventory screen and
then click the door icon on his portrait.
〈 If a RPC dies while in your party and you dismiss the corpse, that
RPC is gone for good.

That said, I don't think a Wizardry 8 with RPC's who never leave is a worse game. It's different, and easier. The inability to interrogate an RPC about when they'll leave you makes it a frustrating system as designed.

[Abscondrel]

theres a place or two where you kinda need open slots.

with Vi, its come down to this.
after years and years its to the point where i only care about not getting ratted out, even though there is a workaround. so Myles gets to hang out for clearing out arnika and under bank, carefully. i dont change him or drag him elsewhere. i also give the gem back to the bank. i dont bother cleaning out the keycard vaults, yet. its all about the loyalty for now.
i bring Vi to the moments of big xp.
i plan the teleporters for that purpose mostly. when you turn in the quests for the umpani and t'rang, you get paid big xp. i make sure Vi gets that. its not shared, so everyone gets it.
she's around enough on the way there and back that she levels up some. i dont really care how her build is. i keep her in the good gear, or naked, whatever. but mostly i let her wait around until i want to ascend.
then, i decide if i feel like carrying her up AP or not.

i wonder if a mod could be built where you get to murder the rpc's and you have to fool a detective and get away with it.

maybe sparkle is the blabbermouth...

[Zergs]

It is a bit of a strange feature. I remember Might and Magic 2 also had two hireling slots on top of a party of six--again, not sure exactly what the mechanical purpose was of having six fully controllable characters and two vestigial appendages that you can use or not use, just with some extra hoops attached. For this to be worthwhile, the hirelings/RPCs need to add a lot more in terms of story and immersion to the game world (some mods do this--see Lana the Great in Dodd's mod). I agree with Tekwarrior's comment that the developers probably had the intention of working the RPCs deeper into the storyline and making them more meaningful (we know there is a cut out quest involving Myles and the Rapax) but ran out of time to do so.

Thematically, I know where this notion of hirelings and recruits comes from--tabletop RPGs. All of these old CRPGs are modeled at least in part on D&D. A bunch of people on this forum have tabletop experience, and I'm sure we all remember the old versions of D&D where you were expected to have an army of henchmen and hirelings alongside the main group of player characters.

Of all the games I've played where you have a mix of player characters, RPCs, and additional hirelings, I think Magic of Scheherazade from the NES did a really nice job--a main character, plus party members, plus frontline grunts with distinct and very limited abilities. Might and Magic 6/7 also did a great job distinguishing recruitable hireling characters from player characters.

All this being said, I do like the RPCs in Wiz8 overall. I like having constraints that I have to figure out how to optimize around in games.