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Anyways, how important weapons are or arent depends heavily on the party composition. A caster focused party will want their melee character(s) to have the best weapons possible, while a party consisting mostly of characters focusing on physical damage might very well finish the game with wooden sticks. Similarly, bigger parties care less for the best weapons than smaller ones.
I think giants swords are a good option, not the best one. You need a ton of stamina sustain to be able to use them, and if your rest all caster suddenly gets CCd for few turns, you might get into trouble. The swords are also very slow, so you will be lagging behind on swings per attack. Furthermore, they are so heavy that it is quite hard to stay out of encumberance range while also carrying the best armor. You also have to be a mook - not bad at all, but not the best, at least for a fighter.
Personally, if extended reach is desired, I go for spears. The best ones are much easier to get and do only a little bit less damage, while also weighting almost nothing, offering much better initiative which translates into more swings per attack, and even have a hefty +20 skill bonus, which means a huge bonus to all combat relevant stats, including number of attacks and swings.
What I like about swords in general is that there are so many of them and it feels like you can always get an upgrade, even if you already have a relatively strong one.
Haha yeah I mean when my bishop has 100 speed and is still going after my guys with 55 let alone the Enemy I’m supposed to be able to be soul shielding, there’s a problem there.
I was using giants sword as an example mostly. I do think it’s one of the best ultimate weapons but I would definitely agree on some of the negatives about it. Could be a dimension I add to that section.
I don’t know that I was looking at extended reach specifically but it’s definitely useful against those SUPER annoying crabs with their extended reach. If it’s extended reach I want I agree polearms are awesome. I do love my Valkyries in this game, my favorite class for sure. I’m running vi and a Dracon Valk this time around, both with dread spears and I’m steamrolling now. I’m
Your thoughts about weight are I interesting though. Makes me want to test about an ivory blade versus giants sword and see if over time it’s better. I tend to think burst is better in these games just cause the death of an enemy is one less that can attack you, but ivory blade is not far behind giant sword damage wise.
Nice thing about giants sword is you can get three of them haha.
I any case the section was going to be more about is it worth it to spend time with characters in the beginning that will be weak in order to get a powerhouse by the end. For example, staffs are mostly poor until you get the SOD or COC
Personally, I would not remove the reference to the CoC in the guide, it would be misunderstood that you didn't know the game. I have written a couple of times here in this (and other) forums that I think the CoC is not a "good" weapon for several reasons, which I can explain again on request.
I think biogoo's Statement about party size is very important, to avoid complications, I would Always refer to the role of a char in a party of 6 fór the same reason, it is the reference,
My experience with the Mook Swords is fantastic. Actually there are 4 of them, 1 in Mt, Wilderness, 2 in SE Wilderness and 1 in Sea Caves. I have a party running with 4 mooks, and melee damage wise it is the most impressive party I ever had. I have to say that I do not run for the "strongest" party, so in absolute figures, other compositions might be even more powerful. I did not encounter the stamina depletion so far, but that game is not finished yet. Other things, new ideas are simply more interesting.
For maximum effectiveness and fun, I think as well as Biogoo that Polearms is the way to go for all the reasons he mentioned, I have described my own experience with a polearm only party in this forum. It is not as powerful as the mook swords, but fully sufficient and much more smooth in development than anything else, due to the constant availability from Arnika onwards and cóntinuous improvement with the difficulty of enemies encountered.
I also found that the extended range not only helps vs enemies not closing in to "short" distance, like the mentioned crabs and trees, but has enormous potential in 3 more situations: a) attacking over quadrants. You may have encountered that one side of combat "runs out of enemies", while the other is still busy, Extended weapons give your party additional options to attack in melee, ie additional damage vs immobilized opponents and additional attacks in case of higher WS of melee weapons. b) in some situations, it helps to move away from opponents first and attack them at extended range, which will disable their additional attacks and sustained damage in some situations. c) in some situations extended range gives access to additional targets in melee.
Only exception to the "supremacy" of polearms is Bloodlust, if given to a Lord, Bard, Samurai or Rogue. (or maybe a non-Shooting Gadgeteer, but this is no option for me).
We already shared some discussions about the relative equipment value early vs late game. I tend more towards the end, because I think few players quit the game unfinished on AP, but a lot quit on Arnika Road or when they touch Bayjin for the first time, because they feel overwhelmed, and the game is "too difficult". But staying in your context of you aiming at end game capabilities, I think the next weapons objects of target and training. Everything that was already mentioned before: Giant Sword, CoC, Dread Spear, Bloodlust, SoD. Additionally I would count in Ivory Blade, Mauler, Diamond Eyes, Flamestaff, Ebonstaff (for Casters only), Thieves Dagger and Zatoichi as end game capable. Enchanted Waki, Winterwand as secondaries, if DW is fully developed, Then of course the random stuff, from LightSword to Faust's (I never used it so far), Muramasa, Estoc de Olivia and the special daggers for Fairies and Beasts. I would, from my own experience, not give a recommendation for MA and Bushido.
All my best wishes for your update project.
Also, surprised how you rate some of these weapons... I agree with most of your ideas, but I don't find Flame and Ebon Staff (inflicting blindness is actually really annoying), Thieves' Dagger or even Ivory Blade all that impressive. I like the weapons that have very high chances to proc strong status debuffs, like 30% or more.
I'd also add Rod of Sprites to your list. Excaliber is also kind of interesting.
CoC and RoS work really well together.
Im not sure what you mean by removing the reference to CoC.
I think CoC’s main issue is that it prevents the ninjas use of his main selling point, auto penetrate. I’ve wanted to love that ability since the game came out but I just find that there aren’t enough thrown weapons if you’re constantly throwing and dual wielding, which is really what you’re “supposed” to be doing. Also, until you get it the ninja is kind of weak. And this run I tried to use throwing enough before I got the coc so I could use bombs and powders and Now I’m sorry because I get sick of grinding relatively early on, and my alchemy skill is now very meh. To be fair, I decided to choose heal wounds for practicality early on instead of itching skin to build up earth which is completely my fault.
But also, I’ve found that I don’t WANT my ninja with the COC to be the powder guy. He should just be swinging while someone who might be bored can throw the powder.
CC I’d agree with zerg here. Thieves dagger is pretty bad. A rogue should have a lot of strength therefore he should be able to switch to bows at range instead of sitting around like a limp. I find it pretty inefficient to have to cast remove curse all the time just to use an OKAY weapon. It’s be great if other classes could use it but alas....
But if I’m having casters use staffs why not have them use SoD??
Zerg, I wouldn’t add those too because they’re extremely rare drops. I would focus only on guaranteed weapons. Namely:
COC
giants sword
Fang/ stiletto or ench was
SOD
Mauler/DE
Ivory blade
Dread spear
Zatoichi bo
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think all the better axes are randomized aren’t they?
2) I played several Fairie Ninjas over time, and this is why I do not like this weapon: a) it is ridiculously overpowered. Like the Light Sword and other comparable weapons, but they drop very rarely, so unless you grind them, you cannot take them into account for a build, if you find them and you have a class which can use it, you are a lucky bastard. The CoC has a drop chance of ~80%, ie you cannot calculate it into an Ironman game, but it drops so frequently you can plan it in, and you must be really unlucky, if it doesn’t drop within a few attempts. b) The Fairie Ninja is relatively weak, before you get it, and very strong afterwards. You can give her Bo->Hayai Bo, to train weapon skill a bit, but these weapons are not strong and do not train DW. To DW CoC + Rod, you need to invest heavily into that skill, otherwise you miss mostly. I never got a Rod of Sprite in my games so far. The stats are impressive, but only some high level sprites can drop one, and you don’t meet them often. C) as already mentioned, the Ninja’s signature skills thrown crit and autopenetrate are wasted. The FN is a one trick pony, because that trick is so strong. It is even worse to invest a lot in other skills, grind throw, grind magic, only to lose it all because of the CoC. D) from the skillset, DEX/SPD is the best choice for a weapon with high crit, because more attacks and swings means more crits. For everything before that, STR/DEX would be the way to go, like for any melee character. E) I found in my latest game that Magic Screen + Soul Shield + Amulet of Healing + CoC + race bonus combined create an overflow in divine resistance calculation, reducing it to 15, you will take heavy damage from low level magic missile from Rapax Samurai. Effectively this means no Amulet of Healing for the FN. All in all I would say the CoC is overpowered with its stats, balanced by the many limitations and compromises you need to take. Compared with that, other Ninja builds with DW Sword or Polearm are much more homogeneous in their development and do not require that many compromises. Btw, I found that from Arnika onwards, I never run out of supply of thrown weapons, darts, knives and shuriken, but this may be related to the fact that I do not DW them. The Ninja is so complicated to develop with his tons of important skills, so I do not have points left for DW. Please note this is all personal, and I respect any other experience with this class.
3) Ebonstaff and Flamestaff are endgame capable for casters in their idle time, when no magic is to cast and if their melee skills are properly developed. Yes, blindness may cause monsters run away, which is not always good. Otoh, if they do not run away, ie “stumble blindly”, they are hit for double, more accurate would be additional damage, which would be a welcome effect.
4) Thieves’ Dagger (5-14 damage, 5% kill) imv is very strong with STR + backstab bonus. They can be DWed and require only one skill to develop, while some other DW builds require 2 skills plus DW itself. The stiletto (3-7 damage, 10% kill) falls far behind. It is a bit faster and it has the higher kill chance, but it was discussed already elsewhere that crits are a nice bonus and helpful, if they occur, but imo too unreliable for a build around that effect. True, the Thieves’ Dagger limits somewhat the capability of ranged attacks. I think a rogue using them could be the aforementioned throw powder & bomb guy, these “magic” attacks would nicely compensate his lack of magic skills. Artefacts is another option. Depends on the other chars, of course. If you want to switch him to ranged, he can do that even in battle with a remove curse spell, if there is no enemy in melee range at the end of the round. Not perfect, I agree, but an option, if you really want him use a bow or sling.
5) The focus on debuff vs raw Damage is probably a preference of the playstyle, the Ivory Blade 7-31 damage is stronger than the Estoc and on par with Fang, including the STR bonus (19 vs. 20.4 damage average), again the kill chance is not so relevant for me.
6) CoC is not guaranteed, only highly likely. See above.
7) Of the axes, Ripper is guaranteed, Blades of Aesir and Crusader’s are random. Axes generally have the problem, they are mostly 2 handed, have short range, low initiative, high stamina consumption and low damage. Ripper (6-27, Ini -6, 2 Hd) loses to Fang (10-24, Ini +2, 1 Hd) by a wide margin. I am running an Axe party atm to check, what that really means, but I do not think they can compete with any other weapon category, except daggers.
8) I would add the Bloodlust to your item list.
1. Oh, I was never planning on taking it out.
2. You and I agree on all these points.
3. I suppose, though again, a caster can use the SOD. But if you have more than one then sure.
4. It’s a trade off for sure. The idea has evolved into an entire weapons section so I will for sure at least be mentioning the thieves dagger as a notable weapon.
5. Ivory blade is great, unfortunately can’t be used by bards or rogues.
6. Yes, but it might as well be guaranteed at 80%. And who wants to pay don barlonne 100k?? Not this guy lol.
7. Yeah axes are super disappointing. I would only build for it if I wanted a change of pace.
8. Already did!
your guide was one of the first I read about this game many years ago and I am happy to meet the author of it here. It would be a great thing if you would extend your guide with end game weapons. For greedy beginners like me, a level recommendation and a short description of the opponents to be killed for the weapons would be helpful, so as not to run into a trap (or directly into the Mountain Wilderness). But don't say that only a Valkyrie can do that.
About the stamina problem with giant swords: Is there a magical item in the game, with which you can cast "Rest All" or "Stamina"? I can't remember ever finding anything like that.
Great! At first glance, the rest all scrolls are the best option. The lute requires a bard level of 18 and can only be found in the Sea Caves and and the potions favour only one character.
Agreed, but in certain parties and situations, the potions work great! It’s not like there’s any lack of them.
Thank you very much! Nice to hear I helped you out. I will certainly take that into consideration for the new section.
You can always save-scum for the Cane, even in Iron Man, to make sure you get it... As long as you kill the Dom before killing Milano, you can check to make sure the Dom drops it and restart the battle if he doesn't.
As far as having a "nearly useless" character in the early game, I start with a Faerie Alchemist and then build him up to have Ninja stats by level 11 so he can switch once I get CoC. This way, all of the hybrid penalties are deferred, he gets an early portal, an alchemy skill bonus (so you can have early effective AoE spells), and you get to grind potions for cash as soon as you get to Arnika. You still develop him for combat the same way (Strength, Dexterity, Close Combat, Staff) but he's effective as an Alchemist too.