My best Wizardry 8 party

[Bananen]

I've been playing this game for years, and I finally found MY best party setup.

And to me, best means an effective team in combat, classes that complement eachother and one that is fun to play.

My team:

1. Lizardman fighter (M) Sword + shield
2. Rawulf Valkyrie (F) Polearm
3. Mook fighter (M) 2H Sword
4. Elf Bishop (F) 2H staff, No points in Psionic.
5. Dracon Ranger (M) Bow (only)
6. Elf Bard (F) Sword

1-3-6 goes in front
2-4-5 goes in back (2+4 having ext reach, 5 having bow locked on)

The 2 fighters meatgrind everything. Bishop takes care of magic, while Valkyrie, Ranger and Bard adds extra help. When magic get less dominant in late game, the party has 5 toons with fighting capability. Bards music helps in beginning before Bishop develops, and takes care of locks and traps. Party got autosearch and improved resting.

I also have 3 Male + 3 Female which I think feels balanced from a RP point of view.

I considered switching one fighter for staff monk and have mok + valk on flanks, but skipped this because I'm not much for psionics, and another fighter outdamages the monk anyway. The only lovely Psionic spell is Insanity, which the Bard gets early anyway from the graveyard.

This team is strong from the start, strong through midgame and I expect it to be strong endgame too. To me, it is balanced and fun. To anyone else, something else might suit better. Have fun.

[vysionier]

Good party overall! I am curious however, what the rationale behind making the bard an elf and the dracon a ranger? Flavor? Or some item combo? Because from a stats perspective it doesn’t make much sense to me.

[mpnorman10]

Nicely balanced, Cool Kid.

Given the care and thought you have obviously taken, I am betting you also have reasons and answers for Vysionier's questions as well. I look forward to reading about it.

When you say front and back for the formation, do you mean front and middle; front and middle and flanks, middle and back; or actually front and back with the middle empty?

[Bananen]

Thanks.

The Dracon as a ranger is because I like Dracons (no, I don't use breath), and the game itself says he makes a great ranger if you hover the Ranger class. I've been using Dracon rangers a long time and they are fine rangers IMO.

The female Elf as bard is strictly from RPG and flavor perspective. For stats I would have chosen a Hobbit, but I see a female bard as someone able to seduce people, and for that reason a Hobbit don't cut it for me with their hairy feet. I'd rather listen to the singing and storytelling of a female Elf. To me, this is valid because I will be playing the team for some time, and the feel is important. And she is working out fine.

And yes, by "back" I meant "center". Sorry, my bad.

[Michaeas Magister]

Ugh! Lizardmen!!

I KNOW they are popular for fighters, but every time I tried to use one I kept having to watch them turncoat or go insane at the drop of a hat. That mental resistance penalty meant he kept fighting more on the side of the enemy than on mine!! LoL :)

[Bananen]

The lizardman fighter is the only race/class combo that I never start a party without in both Wiz7 and Wiz8, and I have never regretted having him. He is usually the top killer. In fact, I thought long and hard about maybe having 3 of them which I am sure would be awesome, but went with just 2 + valk instead, and switched one fighter to mook for the giant sword and for the sake of variation.

[vysionier]

Fair enough! Thanks did your Input :) role play reasons are always valid in my book.

[Zergs]

No Gadgeteer makes me sad :/

[Michaeas Magister]

Originally posted by cool kid:

The lizardman fighter is the only race/class combo that I never start a party without in both Wiz7 and Wiz8, and I have never regretted having him. He is usually the top killer.

Interesting. I don't remember the kills on the one party I took with a Lizardman. I only remember he was the top killer of the party members when he went turncoat and/or insane. My top killers are usually my caster (Mage, Bishop, Alchemist) followed closely by my dual-wield Rogue. The Rogue usually starts at the top of the charts for kills, but gets taken over once the casters learn their AoE spells.

But yeah, I know the Lizardman Fighter is a popular choice for many. :)

Thanks.

[Abscondrel]

i hear these liz fighter turncoat my party to death stories and i wonder...

i like the liz fighter and my party is always dont worry be happy about it. i should check back in and see if i am instinctively running some type of buff cowardice that makes the turncoat less likely. i dont keep npc's around much and fighters level pretty fast so maybe out leveling the evil brain casters keeps my liz fighters on track.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

i hear these liz fighter turncoat my party to death stories and i wonder...

i like the liz fighter and my party is always dont worry be happy about it. i should check back in and see if i am instinctively running some type of buff cowardice that makes the turncoat less likely. i dont keep npc's around much and fighters level pretty fast so maybe out leveling the evil brain casters keeps my liz fighters on track.

I think the problem is less about their chances to get turncoated and more about the massive damage they cause when it inevitably happens. Because at a certain point midway through the game everyone’s resistances get maxed anyways.

[mpnorman10]

That is very correct and is an example of a non-obvious principle in Wizardry 8 play. It is actually possible to overpower your characters, early in the game.

If you are playing as I and many other players do, not Ironman but every need for a reload is considered a mini-failure, then overpowering one or two of your characters early can lead to party death due to backfires, insanity or turncoat.

It is rare, so for players who do not care about or try to prevent the need to reload it is much less of an issue (or a non-issue). The overpower can happen due to artificial training of offensive attack abilities or just focusing too much on a main ability (or a race choice like above that makes the main ability become powerful much earlier).

The consequence of too much focus is a character that peaks early but by then the player discovers that when that peak happens it is already too late then to start developing other abilities that could potentially make the character much stronger as a contributor within the party, as well as potentially creating disaster when that too-focused ability is directed against the party.

Fortunately, many builds that are slightly slower on the main ability are very strong overall because the character ends up with more than one strong (or at least decent) ability which makes the party style-flexible (when dealing with specific foes) and much stronger overall, while the development of the main focus of characters is not slowed down much and is actually potentially more balanced, less likely to hit a rare party death, and not at all compromised.

Of course focusing on too many abilities (skills or attributes) at once during development is not focus at all and is weak, it is just that the appropriate balance between focus and multiple abilities does not always look the same for every character in every strong party.

[Abscondrel]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Originally posted by abscondrel:

i hear these liz fighter turncoat my party to death stories and i wonder...

i like the liz fighter and my party is always dont worry be happy about it. i should check back in and see if i am instinctively running some type of buff cowardice that makes the turncoat less likely. i dont keep npc's around much and fighters level pretty fast so maybe out leveling the evil brain casters keeps my liz fighters on track.

I think the problem is less about their chances to get turncoated and more about the massive damage they cause when it inevitably happens. Because at a certain point midway through the game everyone’s resistances get maxed anyways.

after some pondering and herbal supplementation

so lemme understand this

the resistances get maxed for all...
and the turncoat is inevitable
so we want to hit LESS hard????

:)

i went into an advanced party with liz fighters and i think that shiny helmet might help with the one, and the other i dunno, but i do know that the party is config so the only target my liz fighters would have is the ninja. that ninja is no easy target. this party is so o.p. it just may be that 1. i dont sweat reloads and 2. everything dies really fast.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

Originally posted by vysionier:

I think the problem is less about their chances to get turncoated and more about the massive damage they cause when it inevitably happens. Because at a certain point midway through the game everyone’s resistances get maxed anyways.

after some pondering and herbal supplementation

so lemme understand this

the resistances get maxed for all...
and the turncoat is inevitable
so we want to hit LESS hard????

:)

i went into an advanced party with liz fighters and i think that shiny helmet might help with the one, and the other i dunno, but i do know that the party is config so the only target my liz fighters would have is the ninja. that ninja is no easy target. this party is so o.p. it just may be that 1. i dont sweat reloads and 2. everything dies really fast.

There’s nightmares in the swamp who loooove to turncoat you! That’s usually at a level where you can’t cure it, and everybody’s still a bit squishy, and your Liz fighter has pretty much hit his peak melee ability. So by the time you get to 1 (of 5) nightmares you’ll have enjoyed being reared upon at least twice. All the others will have run away while you clobber that one and will proceed to turncoat you some more. It’s not an impossible battle, and it’s avoidable, it’s just annoying a.f. And they may get your overpowered lizard fighter to gob all your casters.

[A'zerit]

Nightmares run away seemingly from a pathing issue. So using shadow hound, when you know they're near, camp and let them surround your position, and they usually won't run. I don't know if that's better in every case, but I usually "pull" monsters this way, especially ranged types, to save a round or two and bring them to melee range easily.

It works in wall niches too if you don't want to be completely surrounded, as long as you're far enough out to not prevent monster movement.

For nightmares, depending on your level, hopefully you have the soul shield spell ready to go or have pulled a sneaky on Saxx.

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by abscondrel:

i dont sweat reloads

There is no rule that says you have to avoid reloads, but it makes the game much easier, even on "Expert" difficulty (talking about full parties).

On the other hand surviving the game to completion even with however many reloads are needed is an excellent achievement for a newer player and something that player should take pride in.

There is also no guarantee that a Lizardman Fighter (when developed as fast as possible for melee) will cause reloads. It is a vulnerability, nothing more.

The thing about developing characters for more than one type of ability for the party is that the party can become overall much stronger while at the same time mostly removing the party wipe vulnerability mentioned above. It is a trade-off and a Lizardman fighter can be a lot of fun to play, which makes it as right a choice for that player as any other possible choices.

I personally think of the two, or rarely three abilities of characters as two or rarely three out of:

Melee
Range
Wizardry
Alchemy
Psionics
Divinity
Fast casting of Soul Shield
Fast casting of Element Shield
Musical Instruments
Gadgets

Also a locks and traps skill counts as roughly one half (or maybe a bit less).

Of course there are different, loosely defined, qualities or strengths to each of those. Three of those generally means a later development, like a mage with an early Power Cast and only late middle game Eagle Eye plus Snake speed - the latter for fast Element Shield casting. Another example of 3 might be a Bishop with a three school focus.

Often surprising combinations can make for some surprisingly strong characters (as part of a full party).

Artficial training, actually needed for some challenges like solo runs, can blow this out of the water, when used with full parties. There are no difficulty levels beyond Expert, so experienced players who want the fun of playing a full party will often make "rules" they must follow such as no artificial training, as few reloads as possible, etc. There is no great virtue in these rules and it is whatever is fun that actually rules .

A'zerit, mine was a crosspost with yours. That was unintended and thank you for that optional refinement when fighting mares. Using sleep (and Shadow Hound) that way is a tactic I never considered.