Want Bishop Advice

[Corsair Carl]

Since many guides say that Bishop is really good, I wanna know what you guys have to say about it.

[HOK1970]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Toilet Duck:

Now I'm deciding on Fairy or Elf Bishop, Fairy is looking like a better choice.

Fairy is a bad option at Bishop in my experience. The improved mana regeneration is hardly noticeable. A Bishop can also carry very good equipment and a shield ..... if it's not a fairy.

The best choice is an Elf, which allows you to get Powercast the fastest (at level 11 possible). If your Bishop needs Vitality, then take a Gnome, which also increases the resistance to Mind Magic through Vitality (Powercast at Level 12 possible).

[Corsair Carl]

Początkowo opublikowane przez vysionier:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Toilet Duck:

Now I'm deciding on Fairy or Elf Bishop, Fairy is looking like a better choice.

Very squishy. But very good choice. Personally I like human the most because of higher starting vit.

Squishy yes, but I'm gonna be putting them in the back and when I get Vi/Robo-Puncher (forgot his name), they'll be positioned. My bard is going to be Staff Bard so he'll have reach.

Ranger/Gadgie/Bishop in back. Fighter/Bard/Monk in middle with Vi and Bard on the sides.

Also never thought of gnome! I don't like repeating races and I didn't wanna make my Bard and Gadgie the same race (Hobbit Gadgie maybe)

[Zergs]

Don't think Faerie is a good choice--you reduce the party's carrying capacity, and close off some decent equipment that helps Bishop survivability significantly. Shields, in particular, offer a good passive amount of defense even for a back-line Bishop. Also, IMO the Robes of Rejuvenation are better than base Faerie mana regen. Late game, but ultimately provides a better Bishop.

[Corsair Carl]

Okay then, Gnome or Elf it is, thank you for the advice!

[vysionier]

If you don’t mind your Bishop being slow as molasses, then gnome is a good choice.
An elf is almost as squishy as a fairy, but gets better equipment, and they can get powercast at lvl 11 potentially.

A human gets powercast at lvl 12, is _not_ squishy, and can still achieve decent speed by investing in both speed and senses. Being average in this case is a pretty big advantage. Humans generally get 10 to 15 more starting stat points than other races, but because of their average stats, they don’t have as many to distribute at creation.

[Horpner Sneed]

My Bishops are almost always Human, so I must agree with vysionier. A Faerie is perfectly playable, but I don't think it provides any real advantage. It's especially galling, as Zergs mentioned, when your other casters eventually don the Robes of Rejuvenation, becoming permanently straight-up better than any Faerie.

[HOK1970]

Human Bishops are also an option, as they can have a good intelligence value at the beginning of the game AND not a very bad strength value. In Bishop Solo games, where there is a lack of other melee characters, this is more often seen.
However, a bishop is very difficult to train to become a passable melee fighter and in a party with Six, that makes little sense.

In the character creation of the bishop, an elf can distribute 30 points, a gnome 25 points and a human 20 points to his attribute values. An elf gets 10 points more than a human and would then also get to the 45 points in Vitality and thus be just as squishy as the human.

In general, only the 6 attribute points are invested in two attributes when leveling-up. One of them will certainly be intelligence. The second attribute can then be Speed or Senses to increase initiative or Vitality to increase life points, but not both at the same time.
In addition, an increase in the vitality value is necessary as far as possible at each level-up, so that a noticeable increase in hitpoints can be recognized. A gnome still has the advantage that her vitality value improves resistance to mind magic, while a human has no resistance.

Of the basic values, the gnome (35) has 10 points in speed less than a human (45), which makes up 2 points in the initiative. Due to the 5 attribute distribution points more at the beginning of the game, the human is only one point better in the initiative than the gnome, which is not a huge advantage.

[vysionier]

Początkowo opublikowane przez HOK1970:

Human Bishops are also an option, as they can have a good intelligence value at the beginning of the game AND not a very bad strength value. In Bishop Solo games, where there is a lack of other melee characters, this is more often seen.
However, a bishop is very difficult to train to become a passable melee fighter and in a party with Six, that makes little sense.

In the character creation of the bishop, an elf can distribute 30 points, a gnome 25 points and a human 20 points to his attribute values. An elf gets 10 points more than a human and would then also get to the 45 points in Vitality and thus be just as squishy as the human.

In general, only the 6 attribute points are invested in two attributes when leveling-up. One of them will certainly be intelligence. The second attribute can then be Speed or Senses to increase initiative or Vitality to increase life points, but not both at the same time.
In addition, an increase in the vitality value is necessary as far as possible at each level-up, so that a noticeable increase in hitpoints can be recognized. A gnome still has the advantage that her vitality value improves resistance to mind magic, while a human has no resistance.

Of the basic values, the gnome (35) has 10 points in speed less than a human (45), which makes up 2 points in the initiative. Due to the 5 attribute distribution points more at the beginning of the game, the human is only one point better in the initiative than the gnome, which is not a huge advantage.

First of all, the mental resistance from a gnome isn’t even a qualified argument. High intelligence, and high mental realm also add to mental resistance, In addition to it not even mattering by the time you get both magic screen and soul shield.

Second, if your goal is both speed and powercast, you’ll want both sen. And spd. As high as possible at creation. A human with his 7 initial points to distribute per stat. will not need to waste them on increasing vit to make him less squishy, whereas an elf would.
A human who invested all points into int, spd, sen would have 62int, 52spd, and 61 sen.
An elf who increased vit would have 65 int, 55 spd, 55 sen.
A gnome would have 62int, 44 spd, 64 sen.
On average a human would have a 1 initiative edge on the elf until snake speed is achieved at lvl 16 for the elf, but then he’d catch right up at lvl 17. In all honesty, the elf would be far superior to a human so long as you let them be ‘squishy’ and furthermore, a fairy would beat them all speed-wise.
The gnome would be screwed and shouldn’t really be taken on the speed route of development IMO.

Also for comparison’s sake a fairy would have 62int, 67 spd, and 64 sen. Would get both powercast and snake speed at lvl 12 then can spent the rest of his points on sen and vit. And gain the same amount of hp or vit as the human or elf by lvl 17. Also for comparison, a fairy would have vastly superior resistances to all 3 other races. Also, the regenerating robes are nowhere near as useful as the rechargeable mana stones, so who cares about the robes?

[Horpner Sneed]

It's true I can do without the mana regeneration from the robes--Mana Stones and Magic Nectars are good and easy to get. But they do have opportunity costs and annoyance factors that passive regeneration doesn't have. Moreover, a character with the robes still gets to use them, so is strictly stronger.

I like the lack of weaknesses of Humans when compared to races like the Faerie. Technically I suppose it's not the best way to play Wizardry 8, wheere a high degree of focus and utilizing dump-stats can pay off handsomely. I've used plenty of 24 HP Faeries and been satisfied with 'em. But their disadvantages hurt, and can never be obviated, only tolerated. One of shortest-lived parties was a six Faerie disaster. I should try again some time, though. I don't think i did it optimally.

It seems like a Bishop is already strained for stat points and should only be your high-initiative caster if you have no other choice.

[HOK1970]

Początkowo opublikowane przez vysionier:

Początkowo opublikowane przez HOK1970:

Human Bishops are also an option, as they can have a good intelligence value at the beginning of the game AND not a very bad strength value. In Bishop Solo games, where there is a lack of other melee characters, this is more often seen.
However, a bishop is very difficult to train to become a passable melee fighter and in a party with Six, that makes little sense.

In the character creation of the bishop, an elf can distribute 30 points, a gnome 25 points and a human 20 points to his attribute values. An elf gets 10 points more than a human and would then also get to the 45 points in Vitality and thus be just as squishy as the human.

In general, only the 6 attribute points are invested in two attributes when leveling-up. One of them will certainly be intelligence. The second attribute can then be Speed or Senses to increase initiative or Vitality to increase life points, but not both at the same time.
In addition, an increase in the vitality value is necessary as far as possible at each level-up, so that a noticeable increase in hitpoints can be recognized. A gnome still has the advantage that her vitality value improves resistance to mind magic, while a human has no resistance.

Of the basic values, the gnome (35) has 10 points in speed less than a human (45), which makes up 2 points in the initiative. Due to the 5 attribute distribution points more at the beginning of the game, the human is only one point better in the initiative than the gnome, which is not a huge advantage.

First of all, the mental resistance from a gnome isn’t even a qualified argument. High intelligence, and high mental realm also add to mental resistance, In addition to it not even mattering by the time you get both magic screen and soul shield.

Second, if your goal is both speed and powercast, you’ll want both sen. And spd. As high as possible at creation. A human with his 7 initial points to distribute per stat. will not need to waste them on increasing vit to make him less squishy, whereas an elf would.
A human who invested all points into int, spd, sen would have 62int, 52spd, and 61 sen.
An elf who increased vit would have 65 int, 55 spd, 55 sen.
A gnome would have 62int, 44 spd, 64 sen.
On average a human would have a 1 initiative edge on the elf until snake speed is achieved at lvl 16 for the elf, but then he’d catch right up at lvl 17. In all honesty, the elf would be far superior to a human so long as you let them be ‘squishy’ and furthermore, a fairy would beat them all speed-wise.
The gnome would be screwed and shouldn’t really be taken on the speed route of development IMO.

Also for comparison’s sake a fairy would have 62int, 67 spd, and 64 sen. Would get both powercast and snake speed at lvl 12 then can spent the rest of his points on sen and vit. And gain the same amount of hp or vit as the human or elf by lvl 17. Also for comparison, a fairy would have vastly superior resistances to all 3 other races. Also, the regenerating robes are nowhere near as useful as the rechargeable mana stones, so who cares about the robes?

I don't want to argue with you and I don't want to deny that your arguments are correct.
Although my opinion may not count that much here in the forum, my hints don't have to be bad. I don't want to impose my way of playing, everyone should play Wizardry the way they want.

It's just that I've tested the bishop's class intensively in recent years. This also included starting with the most diverse races and trying out different ways of thought, with the aim of having a strong bishop at the beginning of the game, without grinding.
Many of these tests were very promising, but still, I restarted countless times to find an even better way. I've also watched several videos on how to optimize my characters and I thank Biogoo and other experienced Wizardry players who have always patiently answered my questions.

In any case, I can assure you that I have tested Human, Fairy, Gnome and Elf Bishops intensively. Bishops with a lot of Piety but without high initiative, Bishops without increased Piety but with high initiative, even Bishops with increased dexterity and strength attributes. My comments therefore refer to my own experiences, which I have made with various self-played models of Bishops in Wizardry 8 myself.

Have you also tested the various possibilities in the skill of a bishop yourself, so that you can objectively compare your preferred playing style with others? Or is it just a bishop's playing style that you know best?

With regard to the importance of initiative on caster, it can be read in various guides that it is the strongest way to skill casters.
However, these guides are 20 years old and in the meantime other players have found out that this is not the only way to skill casters.
Biogoo, for example, completely neglects speed on his characters, as this attribute does not help for the development of skills. In any case, he gets along quite well with this style of play.

In any case, I respect your opinion and I hope that you do the same with me.

[vysionier]

Początkowo opublikowane przez HOK1970:

Początkowo opublikowane przez vysionier:

First of all, the mental resistance from a gnome isn’t even a qualified argument. High intelligence, and high mental realm also add to mental resistance, In addition to it not even mattering by the time you get both magic screen and soul shield.

Second, if your goal is both speed and powercast, you’ll want both sen. And spd. As high as possible at creation. A human with his 7 initial points to distribute per stat. will not need to waste them on increasing vit to make him less squishy, whereas an elf would.
A human who invested all points into int, spd, sen would have 62int, 52spd, and 61 sen.
An elf who increased vit would have 65 int, 55 spd, 55 sen.
A gnome would have 62int, 44 spd, 64 sen.
On average a human would have a 1 initiative edge on the elf until snake speed is achieved at lvl 16 for the elf, but then he’d catch right up at lvl 17. In all honesty, the elf would be far superior to a human so long as you let them be ‘squishy’ and furthermore, a fairy would beat them all speed-wise.
The gnome would be screwed and shouldn’t really be taken on the speed route of development IMO.

Also for comparison’s sake a fairy would have 62int, 67 spd, and 64 sen. Would get both powercast and snake speed at lvl 12 then can spent the rest of his points on sen and vit. And gain the same amount of hp or vit as the human or elf by lvl 17. Also for comparison, a fairy would have vastly superior resistances to all 3 other races. Also, the regenerating robes are nowhere near as useful as the rechargeable mana stones, so who cares about the robes?

I don't want to argue with you and I don't want to deny that your arguments are correct.
Although my opinion may not count that much here in the forum, my hints don't have to be bad. I don't want to impose my way of playing, everyone should play Wizardry the way they want.

It's just that I've tested the bishop's class intensively in recent years. This also included starting with the most diverse races and trying out different ways of thought, with the aim of having a strong bishop at the beginning of the game, without grinding.
Many of these tests were very promising, but still, I restarted countless times to find an even better way. I've also watched several videos on how to optimize my characters and I thank Biogoo and other experienced Wizardry players who have always patiently answered my questions.

In any case, I can assure you that I have tested Human, Fairy, Gnome and Elf Bishops intensively. Bishops with a lot of Piety but without high initiative, Bishops without increased Piety but with high initiative, even Bishops with increased dexterity and strength attributes. My comments therefore refer to my own experiences, which I have made with various self-played models of Bishops in Wizardry 8 myself.

Have you also tested the various possibilities in the skill of a bishop yourself, so that you can objectively compare your preferred playing style with others? Or is it just a bishop's playing style that you know best?

With regard to the importance of initiative on caster, it can be read in various guides that it is the strongest way to skill casters.
However, these guides are 20 years old and in the meantime other players have found out that this is not the only way to skill casters.
Biogoo, for example, completely neglects speed on his characters, as this attribute does not help for the development of skills. In any case, he gets along quite well with this style of play.

In any case, I respect your opinion and I hope that you do the same with me.

Of course I respect your opinion and your views are 100% valid. I also have played extensively since 2002ish. I’ve developed my own criteria for a Bishop and it has little to do with my previous arguments I made. My bishops are made custom tailored to each individual party I create on every party. Sometimes I neglect speed on a magic heavy party. Sometimes I create a fragile first strike caster.

I do, however enjoy discussing the different good and bad points on every class from a stat and progression viewpoint, which may be why I came off as confrontational. As to that, I have to apologize, it wasn’t my intent to invalidate your viewpoint, but rather to invite critique on my own viewpoint. Some lively discussion if you will. One of my favorite things to do in this game is to discuss optimizing characters and parties in this game.

Cheers!

[Horpner Sneed]

I'm just now starting to appreciate high-initiative casters. I thought they would be one-trick ponies, but their speed is convenient once they are nearly guaranteed to go first. Biogoo's play-style is suited to low-speed characters, but I don't know how many others play like him. The way he takes advantage of continuous combat is really cool, but it's not easy. In continuous combat you have just a few seconds to define the action of your fast characters before they miss a turn. For decades I managed just fine with slow casters utilizing party-combat to get spells up during the surprise round. But of course, that doesn't always work--I get surprised sometimes, too. I'd have never tried high initiative casters without using mpnorman's guide.

Gaining self-knowledge about my own play-style has been my recent quest, and it's been great fun! That has meant reading and trying out newer guides, and watching recent videos.

The weirdest part of watching other people play is when they do trivial stuff I always do, practices I developed on my own from hundreds of repetitions. A case in point is what Biogoo does when first entering the second level of the monastery--run left, strafe left, and reverse up the stairs to fight the (usually) only dangerous encounter on the whole level.

Then the educational part, of course, is when they do things I've never done.

[HOK1970]

@vysionier: I also want to apologize and have misunderstood you. Just like you, I bought the game in 2001 and played it very intensively (especially in recent years). Nevertheless, there is always something new for me to learn and optimize in this old game. Therefore, exchanges of opinions are helpful, as there are so many ways to develop characters.
I agree with you that the characters (and especially the Bishop) should be specially tailored to the rest of the group members for optimization.

For example, it helps if a Bishop is accompanied by a mage and an alchemist at the beginning of the game, as they do not have to learn Alchemy and Air Magic (Missle shield) immediately.

@Horpner Sneed: I also play continuous combat after Biogoo explained the optimal key assignment to me. It took me a while to change, but Wizardry has now become like an addiction. The game just runs much faster and smoother. I can't and don't want to go back to the round combat.
Although MPNorman actually only wrote his guide for specialist casters, I was able to take over some useful things for the development of my bishops. For example, the improvement of skills through regular use of the buffs or that the expansion of Piety is not absolutely necessary, is also applicable to Bishops.

From Biogoo especially the speedruns are known.
Would like to see again a game of Biogoo with a party of six, where he explains a natural development of different characters. For example, in which ways several Bishops can be developed in a group, without grinding.

[Teralitha]

I like having 1 draconian bishop in my party. It takes an incredible amount of micro managing for many levels and saving points for the highest level spells, buying as many spells as you can or finding them. It takes some previous playthrough knowledge to know what and where some loot spells can be found so you dont waste points on them. Milk every trap and locked door/chest to practice spells until you cant stand it anymore. I choose draconian for the hit points. A weak spellcaster is dead too easily from aoe. That goes for your whole party. HP HP HP. Get lots of HP.

[vysionier]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Teralitha:

I like having 1 draconian bishop in my party. It takes an incredible amount of micro managing for many levels and saving points for the highest level spells, buying as many spells as you can or finding them. It takes some previous playthrough knowledge to know what and where some loot spells can be found so you dont waste points on them. Milk every trap and locked door/chest to practice spells until you cant stand it anymore. I choose draconian for the hit points. A weak spellcaster is dead too easily from aoe. That goes for your whole party. HP HP HP. Get lots of HP.

You would be (slightly) better off with a dwarf, they have the same vit stat and only have a -10 vs the dracon -15.

Furthermore, a gnome actually has bonus points which you can use to start with 59 vit along with int so you might even get power cast by lvl 12. And in addition you can keep adding points into vit which would put you at a higher vit in comparison to both dracon and dwarf. For instance: at lvl 5 you’d have 71vit with a gnome, but 66 with dracon, and 68 with a dwarf. This is assuming you prioritize vitality of course.