Magic Damage End Game Example

[mpnorman10]

While another thread has been started to nail down actual magical resistance per foe during a round of battle. I felt this example from a magic party near the end of the game would respond to, assist and illustrate what the findings of that thread mean in terms of actual magical damage. However, as this necessarily contains a lot of detail it seemed to be more appropriate to start a new thread and not divert the focus of the formula gleaning and analysis thread.

What I did was just take the party approaching the cosmic circle, turn around, and go looking for a fight.

Rather than put a summary at the end I will put it here, so any just interested in at most a summary can read it and stop. The rest of the post is the state of the characters, enemies and actual battle, blow by blow.

SUMMARY:

1) The battle shows side by side, that the spells of the Bard and Gadgeteer cast at the same Power Level that the Specialist Caster casts at are not as powerful, but they are powerful enough to do a significant portion of the damage a specialist caster can do.

2) The Priest with Falling Stars (and Power Cast) does a significant portion of the damage an Alchemist does with Earthquake, but not as much.

3) There is no way to estimate the ratios of damage for the two cases above from a single battle.

4) The battle also shows a not atypical example of the value and impact of having fast Soul and Element shield casters (which requires the commitment of a lot of attribute points. This battle is an example of what it does, but no claim is made that a party without it will fail.

5) This particular run used RPCs, even though I currently no longer recommend bothering with them for an MDP (magic damage party). The battle shows an example of how to get some use out of them. although clearly the battle would not have been much different without them.

6) Having Vi cast Falling Stars at PL3 is pretty pointless, I agree, but it was included here for illustration and comparison purposes.

7) Even seven levels above when they first qualify for casting level 7 instruments and gadgets the Bard and Gadgeteer do not always cast at Power Level 7. It is also pretty clear that a single power level, from 6 to 7, can make a big difference.

8) The effect of leaving the Priest's Piety at the starting level of 60 throughout the game is seen in Divinity only reaching 116/125 while, in this particular game, Wizardry, Psionics and Alchemy reach 125 for the other Specialist Casters.

9) Often (but not always) even the enemy's most resistant realm is still vulnerable to some degree.

PARTY:

Here is the party and some relevant skill levels (if used in this battle):
RFS=81 - Level 23
Vi - Level 22, Divinity 91, Earth 68, (no Power Cast)
Bard - Level 25, Music 98, Power Strike 86, Sword 100, Close Combat 87
Priest - Level 24, Divinity 116, Power Cast 84, Earth 93
Gadgeteer - Level 25, Engineering 100, Sword (Fang) 83, Power Strike 50, Close Combat 62
Alchemist - Level 24, Alchemy 125, Power Cast 81, Earth 94
Psionic - Level 24, Psionics 125, Power Cast 90, Mental 98, Throwing and Sling 80, Ranged Combat 85, Eagle Eye 58, Snake Speed 40
Mage - Level 24, Wizardry 125, Power Cast 112, Fire 88, Throwing and Sling 82, Ranged Combat 88, Eagle Eye 42, Snake Speed 31

No repetitive training was used, just battles while traveling or working toward objectives. Sleep and Rebuff between battles, healing after battle at PL1, and some Alchemy one potion at a time could be considered training but was used.

BATTLE:

The foe I ran into first and used was 2 Maddening Gazers. Since there are only two I could have used melee after the first round but I went the magic damage route instead. Typically it is one method or the other, but magic damage typically has a melee/range clean-up round or two at the end, as was the case for this battle.

At 22 the AI decided the foes were same level as the party, but in practice the roughly two level edge the party has does matter.

At start:

Maddening Gazer 406/406 Hit Points, 663/663 Stamina, Long Range
Maddening Gazer 412/412 Hit Points, 628/628 Stamina, Long Range

Resistances:
Fire 85
Water 90
Air 85
Earth 85
Mental 100
Divine 70

No surprise either way.

Round 1:

-> Psionic casts PL7 Soul Shield
-> Mage casts PL7 Element Shield

-> Gadgeteer uses Jackhammer. AI makes it PL 6 Earthquake

Maddening Gazer takes 23 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 11 Damage

-> Bard uses Rousing Drums. AI makes it PL 6 Haste

-> RFS-81 throws Pandemonium Powder which becomes PL3 Pandemonium

Maddening Gazer becomes afraid
Maddening Gazer becomes afraid
Maddening Gazer cowers in fear
Maddening Gazer cowers in fear

-> Priest cast PL 7 Falling Stars at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer takes 22 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 30 Damage

-> Vi shoots Siege Arbalest at Maddening Gazer

Hits tail - 34 Damage

-> Alchemist casts PL7 Earthquake

Maddening Gazer takes 55 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 26 Damage

-> Vi shoots Siege Arbalest at Maddening Gazer

Hits head - 40 Damage

Results of Round 1:

Maddening Gazer: 232/406 Hit Points, 544/663 Stamina, Long Range, Afraid
Maddening Gazer: 345/412 Hit Points, 584/628 Stamina, Long Range, Afraid

Round 2:

-> Psionic Casts PL 7 Mind Flay at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer takes 12 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 29 Damage

-> Mage Casts PL 7 Nuclear Blast at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer takes 63 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 53 Damage

-> Bard plays Infernal Horn. AI makes it PL 7 Nuclear Blast

Maddening Gazer takes 34 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 45 Damage

-> Gadgeteer uses Jackhammer. AI makes it PL 5 Earthquake

Maddening Gazer takes 5 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 19 Damage

-> RFS-81 Drinks Eye for an Eye Potion. It becomes PL 5 Eye for Eye

-> Vi casts PL 3 Falling Stars at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer Unaffected
Maddening Gazer takes 5 Damage

-> Priest Casts PL 7 Falling Stars at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer takes 11 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 41 Damage

-> Alchemist Casts PL 7 Earthquake at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer takes 67 Damage
Maddening Gazer takes 28 Damage

-> Maddening Gazer Casts PL 4 Prismic Chaos at All Enemies

RFS-81 Unaffected
Vi Unaffected
Bard Unaffected
Priest Unaffected
Gadgeteer Unaffected
Alchemist Unaffected
Psionic Unaffected
Mage Unaffected

-> RFS-81's Eye for an Eye takes effect

Maddening Gazer takes 6 Damage
Maddening Gazer becomes Aftaid

-> Maddening Gazer Flees in Terror
-> Maddening Gazer is no longer Afraid

Results of Round 2:

Maddening Gazer: 34/406 Hit Points, 403/663 Stamina, Long Range
Maddening Gazer: 125/412 Hit Points, 435/628 Stamina, Out of Range, Afraid

Round 3:

-> Psionic Casts PL 7 Mind Flay at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer takes 25 Damage

-> Mage Casts PL 7 Nuclear Blast at All Enemies

Maddening Gazer takes 34 Damage
Maddening Gazer dies.

-> Gadgeteer uses Jackhammer but aborts (no target)
-> Bard uses Infernal Horn but aborts (no target)

-> RFS-81 uses Mana Stone. Has effect of PL 6 Restore Mana

Alchemist Regains 168 Spell Points

-> Vi aborts Falling Stars (no target)
-> Vi Defends

-> Priest Casts PL 7 Rest All on Party

RFS-81 is Full Stamina
Vi is Full Stamina
Bard is Full Stamina
Priest is Full Stamina
Gadgeteer is Full Stamina
Alchemist is Full Stamina
Psionic is Full stamina
Mage is Full Stamina

-> Alchemist Defends

-> Maddening Gazer flees in Terror
-> Maddening Gazer is no longer Afraid

Results of Round 3:

Unknown (remaining Maddening Gazer has run around a corner, presumed still 125/412 Hit Points).

Round 4:

Party selects run (no spells) and runs toward Maddening Gazer position

-> Maddening Gazer Casts PL 7 Eye for Eye on Self. Out of range around corner.

Round 5:

Party selects run (no spells). Runs into melee range.

-> Gadgeteer swing Fang at Maddening Gazer

Hits Tail - 30 Damage

Results of Round 5:

Maddening Gazer: 95/412 Hit Points 380/628 Stamina, Short Range

Round 6:

-> Psionic shoots Wrist Rocket at Maddening Gazer

Hits Tail - 15 Damage

-> Mage shoots Wrist Rocket at Maddening Gazer 2x

Hits Tail - 17 Damage
Hits Tail - 14 Damage
Maddening Gazer falls Unconscious

-> Bard goes Beserk with Bloodlust 4x

Hits Head for 3x - 75 Damage
Maddening Gazer dies

Battle ends.

[Zergs]

Hmm, interesting info MPN. I wonder why Nuclear Blast is doing so much more damage than the other spells, even Earthquake? The resistances are all in the 80-100 range.

[biogoo]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

1) The battle shows side by side, that the spells of the Bard and Gadgeteer cast at the same Power Level that the Specialist Caster casts at are not as powerful, but they are powerful enough to do a significant portion of the damage a specialist caster can do.

2) The Priest with Falling Stars (and Power Cast) does a significant portion of the damage an Alchemist does with Earthquake, but not as much.

7) Even seven levels above when they first qualify for casting level 7 instruments and gadgets the Bard and Gadgeteer do not always cast at Power Level 7. It is also pretty clear that a single power level, from 6 to 7, can make a big difference.

9) Often (but not always) even the enemy's most resistant realm is still vulnerable to some degree.

Thanks forthe info, led me shed some light on the selected points.

1. We dont know yet how powercast affects resistances. What we know is that it adds power level to the casted spells - roughly, 110 powercast will add 2 power levels to a power level 7 cast. This means that your mage is in fact casting PL9 nuclear blast when you select PL7, but your bard is "stuck" on maximum PL7. So even against a 0 resistance enemy, the mage does 28,5% more damage per cast than the bard.

2. Well, no wonder, all priest spells do about 25% less damage than their counterparts from other schools. The mana cost of the spell also has some effect on the resistance reduction, making the spell additionally weaker (16 mana falling stars vs. 18 mana earthquake).

7. How music works was explained in some of the earlier threads. If I remember correctly, the chance to actually cast at max PL once the character is eligible is independent of the character level.
Also yes, the difference between power levels can be significant - not only is the base damage higher, there may also be some additional resistance piercing.

9. To completely avoid spell damage all the time, the enemy needs and effective resistance of 200.

[mpnorman10]

While the exact formulas (that I remember seeing but haven't been able to find either within the earlier posts of the forum) are being sorted out in the other thread and while the Bard, Gadgeteer and Priest can be called mediocre end game casters (I would prefer the term "decent") compared to, say, the Alchemist, I would like to point out to other players reading this, that the fact of that is not a character flaw.

It is the total character that matters and in just the above battle for example, the Bard's Rousing Drums and Priest's Rest All played a role. Those three characters are very valuable in this particular MDP, IMO, and their contributions to the total damage can cut off rounds necessary to kill the enemies. The most important defense for an MDP is killing enemies fast.

The above battle and entire game leading up to it were on Expert Difficulty. Using that plus the above party stats might actually allow, using the formulas when complete, to determine what the rolls resulting in the above must have been (not that anyone would necessarily want to do that), as a kind of spot check on the formulas (i.e. if the formulas are complete the rolls of the virtual 0-99 die computed in this way should be legal ones like 28 or 45 and not illegal ones like -11 or 104).

[mpnorman10]

Hannibal, this is in immediate answer to your query.

It may sound silly, and I realized it is probably not all that difficult, but I have never created a video before and am not sure about the procedure. I did save the game at least once per level for the above magic damage party throughout the game including just before the circle.

[Hannibal Sm!th]

I've read it and it confirmed my experience on magic dmg. These two monsters have very weak magic resistances compared to other monsters you can find. At this point of the game 100-150 magic resistance is quite common.

There was two good hits of nuclear blast with 50-60, but bard and gadgeteer casts were mediocre at best. 22-30 damage of falling stars is insulting to the player at this point. 22-30? Really? And it has only 85% earth resistance. Rapax encounters where the samurais cast element shield, resistances goes up to 150+. If a max PL level 7 spell can do 22-30 against an enemy that have only 85% resistance what it does against 150? 10? 5?

It's simply dissapointing how weak magic is in this game.

[mpnorman10]

Like I said, I will work on the video.

Having dug into it deeply there is zero level of disappointment, by me, of magic capabilities in this (vanilla - no mods) game. In fact my experience is that the power of such a party, at Expert Difficulty, on the peak is awesome and impressive to me, having played many melee/range parties as well.

It is just an alternative and will not break my heart if you never play an MDP and experience that power. It is there for any player to experience or not. It is what it is, full of weaknesses and incredible strengths, with no secret sauce and all reproducible by any player.

Thank you, sincerely, for considering this in detail even though you are clearly skeptical. I have no problem with arguments against this approach when based on actual numbers (like yours are). I appreciate your diligence.

[Hannibal Sm!th]

Don't get me wrong MPnorman10. I'm happy you enjoy playing a MDP party. But for me, If I play a MDP grind it to level 25+ and I cast a level 7PL spell and I see an average damage of 30-40 I rage quit the game instantly.

I simply can't accept that. And I know why this happens. As I've said before I completed a run of a Wiz7 game recently. In Wiz7 compared to Wiz8 magic is extremely strong. There are no resistances in Wiz7 the way it works in 8. It's all or none. You affect an enemy with a spell, or you don't. If the spell affects the monster it takes full damage. Encounters with 40+ monsters on expert are quite common. So a full cast of NB of 6 class-changed characters can do 120dmg/monster to each monster. 120*40!! 4800dmg on a single round! A single character!!

This is why they nerfed magic & class changing on WIz8. But they went too far. To the point that your magic caster can do more damage with melee weapons than with his magic. It's sad for me because I enjoyed so much playing a magic party in Wiz7.

[mpnorman10]

I hear you, but damage per round of 3000-5000 damage is not uncommon. Sure, since the most powerful spells hit all of the foes as effectively as one foe, enemies in groups, and preferably multiple groups at once is most efficient, and there are player skills and spells to help bring that about. It is a different way of playing, a different experience.

I do not grind, or at least I try to avoid it, but have found that a thorough (Expert Difficulty) run that explores everywhere and does not avoid battles too much quite naturally reaches (with a policy of sleeping and recasting between most battles) level 25 by the end of the game (optionally including RPCs maybe 1-3 levels behind). In such a game I might go through areas already explored, like Arnika-Trynton road or the Swamp on the way from A to B, but do not intentionally go out of the way to repeat areas that the map shows as explored. The retro dungeons are included.

Remember also that while a for an MDP when the foes reach the party there have already been 1-2 rounds of heavy damage upon them. It is rare for any battle in which magic is effective to last more than six rounds, including protections and cleanup, against a large or small group, versus a typical battle of 20 rounds for melee/range against a large group.

Yes, there is nothing to prove, fun is subjective and this is just a fun discussion. The frustration you have felt with magic on the peak makes me yearn for you to feel the power of an MDP throughout this game, including on the peak. I talk about this because it has proven for me to be incredibly fun and powerful and I want to share that with W8 players looking for a new experience within the same game. If that is not your choice then of course I also support that, however.

About the design of magic in W8 I will say that the 4 level penalty for hybrids practicing magic is harsh and I would have designed it differently, perhaps no level penalty but an underlying number system, like there is as a factor for the number of attacks (Fighter is 4, Bard is 3, Priest is 2). That is a gentler and more fair penalty system, IMO,. That factor could impact the effectiveness of spells versus resistance, for example. The Specialist Casters are plenty powerful as they are, however, IMO (as long as they are not developed as "pure" casters).

[sentinelbasch]

Based solely on the enjoyment factor, I do find myself pulling out magic when large quantities of enemies are involved, and relying more on melee when there are fewer enemies.

A lot of it has to do with enemy movement. Since I can start combat when I want to in the ideal position to do so for almost every encounter, using magic for large groups means that my party and the enemies are usually only moving around on their first turn (unless the enemies are willing to spend several turns circling around a hallway or tunnel to reach my party's rear, which is super annoying). Using melee in these situations means my party and/or the enemies are constantly advancing, and melee does not usually reach it's full damage potential because there's not always an enemy in range to hit after defeating the last one. Of course, there are still ranged attacks, but some party members will not have this due to cursed weapons, and the damage from ranged is much less.

In general, if by the first turn I can be positioned to where I'm at short range to all enemies in the encounter, then I'm more likely to rely on melee. If there are more enemies behind the front line enemies, I usually rely on magic.

But...while I'm a patient grinder, I find it really boring to wait for x number of enemies to move into position every combat turn, and I try to take steps to eliminate that where I can. I try to start every battle at short range to the enemy's front line unless I can kill them all on the first preemptive turn. But that is a preference.

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by sentinelbasch:

A lot of it has to do with enemy movement.

Yes, absolutely. I find a wide variety of tactical situations when it is appropriate to run or stay and cast, as well as the thoroughly developed physical damage capability of the MDP.

In situations when they can take the long way around to attack the party from the rear, yes, that is annoying, but the speed in which magic kills often makes it viable to kill those charging (or who would be charging if there was an opening) in front and then turn around in time to face the enemies approaching from the rear. Also, sometimes just back to a wall and fighting on three sides works very well also.

Also, even casters get decent AC as the game progresses and it is possible to pull them up to the same level as the rest and use Guardian Angel (or Resurrection if necessary). The later is rare and almost never the entire party and reload. Yeah there are some attacks from behind, but if all at the same level the party quickly adjusts for that.

A large part of all defense is speed of killing. Once the party gets rolling, usually it is only Souldrinker (or fumble fingers at the obstacle course) who has a chance of wiping the party. Even Unicorns and Cloud Jinn are no problem.

[mpnorman10]

I ran across this when doing a search. A while back there were some questions raised about magic on the peak and this example of a fight using magic damage was provided. It came up again recently so I thought I would bring this thread forward in case there are any new questions about it.

The battle, with only two enemies could have been done by this MDP in melee range mode, but magic damage mode was used as a demonstration. Its use is more impressive with a dozen enemies, or something like that, but this shows typical damage levels and the impact of Power Cast against resistance.

Many of the level 7 spells cast at Power Level 7 were in the yellow, but the small chance of backfires is not a significant danger at this point in the game. The battle was initiated by loading an MDP (magic damage party) just before going up the hill to the entrance to the cosmic circle and turning around to look for a fight.