Throwing ninja builds

[vysionier]

I was reading in another discussion about someone doing a dex/sen build for a throwing ninja, and It got me thinking; do ninjas even need high sen?
My points: 1) auto penetrate. This reduces the needed to hit against an enemy(I’m pretty sure it works that way, it’s been a while since I did the math)
2) no long distances. Close up enemies are much easier to hit than further ones.

Plus, doesn’t 100 str give +1 ranged to hit as well?

What are your thoughts and experiences on a throwing ninja build? My personal preferences are str/dex followed by spd/sen.

[mpnorman10]

Strength does not improve range accuracy, only melee. It improves both melee and range damage, if that range damage depends upon strength.

I agree with your basic point, however. Strength + Dexterity is powerful for a Ninja and auto penetrate makes range powerful as well. Dexterity gives the best support for range accuracy, over double that of Senses and penetration is not an issue as you point out.

[Skleedle]

Most of my throwing ninjas use Sling for long range--autopenetrate and thrown crit apply to sling. Eagle Eye still makes a difference. And since none of the other attributes after Dex do anything to help hit with T/S, Sen is still a noticeable factor even discounting EE.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Strength does not improve range accuracy, only melee. It improves both melee and range damage, if that range damage depends upon strength.

I agree with your basic point, however. Strength + Dexterity is powerful for a Ninja and auto penetrate makes range powerful as well. Dexterity gives the best support for range accuracy, over double that of Senses and penetration is not an issue as you point out.

I just referred to the attribute chart link from peddrolem’s guide, and it says +1 ranged to hit at 70 str, and +2 at 90 str.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by Skleedle:

Most of my throwing ninjas use Sling for long range--autopenetrate and thrown crit apply to sling. Eagle Eye still makes a difference. And since none of the other attributes after Dex do anything to help hit with T/S, Sen is still a noticeable factor even discounting EE.

Eagle eye is especially important if you use a sling with a ninja, as thrown auto penetrate doesn’t apply to slings, only thrown weapons.

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Strength does not improve range accuracy, only melee. It improves both melee and range damage, if that range damage depends upon strength.

I agree with your basic point, however. Strength + Dexterity is powerful for a Ninja and auto penetrate makes range powerful as well. Dexterity gives the best support for range accuracy, over double that of Senses and penetration is not an issue as you point out.

I just referred to the attribute chart link from peddrolem’s guide, and it says +1 ranged to hit at 70 str, and +2 at 90 str.

I do not remember that from Peddroelm's guide or in the translation of Silicoid's formulas. I have seen plenty of analysis about Strength otherwise, but maybe I am wrong about this one. If so I stand corrected. Thank you. I will look into it further.

[Skleedle]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Originally posted by Skleedle:

Most of my throwing ninjas use Sling for long range--autopenetrate and thrown crit apply to sling. Eagle Eye still makes a difference. And since none of the other attributes after Dex do anything to help hit with T/S, Sen is still a noticeable factor even discounting EE.

Eagle eye is especially important if you use a sling with a ninja, as thrown auto penetrate doesn’t apply to slings, only thrown weapons.

yah, sorry, only the crits works on slings--i even remember the first time i got a no-damage hit saying to myself to stop thinking it worked. I don't remember where i got the idea it did.

[vysionier]

Lol! I find myself doing stuff like that all the time, probably the true reason why I don’t feel ok without a samurai in the party.

[Hannibal Sm!th]

A throwing ninja build would be viable if the exp requeriment were something like specialist/specialist caster. There are two problems: ammunition and exp. You can avoid the first one using slings or bombs until you get more thrown ammo, but the second one only editing the game.

If you put in the same party a good number of specialists + casters the ninja is going to lag behind in levels, so critical strikes will happen rarely. This is the main problem of hybrids and critical strike, but in the case of a ninja even more noticeable.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by Hannibal Sm!th:

A throwing ninja build would be viable is the exp requeriment were something like specialist/specialist caster. There are two problems: ammunition and exp. You can avoid the first one using slings or bombs until you get more thrown ammo, but the second one only editing the game.

If you put in the same party a good number of specialists + casters the ninja is going to lag behind in levels, so critical strikes will happen rarely. This is the main problem of hybrids and critical strike, but in the case of a ninja even more noticeable.

Mostly in agreement with you there, I’d never ever ever count on critical strike though, so no worries there from a leveling perspective, as for ammo, it is indeed an issue, so the case could be made for an extended weapon of some sort. Bullwhip and staves come to mind off-hand, and if you stay out of range in the formation you could definitely be a great secondary healer with a few other spells for support. Razor cloak and body of stone come to mind.

[Skleedle]

yah, the imparity of leveling, that's why i do these things in parties of less than 4.

[biogoo]

The auto penetrate is great, the damage of throwing weapons is not. Throwing weapons are a great way to take down Don Barlone early, as even with 0 skill, you always do damage, but thats about it.

The critical chance is 1% per 25 points of skill (in between every 25 points, you roll a dice to see if you get the lower or the higher crit chance) and it has to pass a resistance check.

[CeterumCenseo]

Autopenetrate means no check vs penetration. My interpretation is that there is no change in frequency of "misses" events, but "no penetration" events will go down to zero.

I never have problems with thrown ammunition quantities, if there is only one char using it. Maybe this is related to the fact I use them only one handed. DWing them nerfs both main and off-hand. With the BS later, you can buy more than shoot.

For some strange reasons, autopenetrate seems to ignore damage resistance caused by Body of Stone. I did not make statistical calculations, but the damage of Ninja thrown darts vs Nessie in that recent Fairie Run seemed to be independent, if BoS on Nessie was on or off.

I would go for STR/DEX on Ninja as well. Simply because a DEX/SEN or DEX/SPD setup make the Ninja inoperable in melee.

Char level vs monster level play a very big role, therefore the Ninja, lagging one or two levels behind the fighters, has a problem relative to those fighters and specialist casters.

[biogoo]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

Autopenetrate means no check vs penetration. My interpretation is that there is no change in frequency of "misses" events, but "no penetration" events will go down to zero.

I believe that as long as the projectile lands on an enemy, it will not miss and only has to check against penetrate. This makes ranged weapons in general quite effective in melee range. A ninja in melee will always do damage with thrown weapons (except perhaps against very small enemies that can still be somehow missed by the flying projectile).

[CeterumCenseo]

I now recall a discussion we had some time ago related to the messages from the UI. My interpretation was that "missed" indicated a failed check "to hit" and "no penetration" a subsequent check "to penetrate". You pointed out at that time iirc that the messages might be misleading and did not fully support the damage calculation model. This may be correct.

Related to ranged damage, I realized as influence factors: distance, target size (missing Nessie is almost impossible, hitting a millipede shooting from a distance is more difficult), obstacles, LoS.
LoS again is related to target size. A Savant Orb cannot shoot over or through a Savant Trooper, but it can shoot over an ant, for instance.
Shooting at point blank is surprisingly effective, also with relatively low ranged combat and weapon skills. I saw that phenomenon in many solo games I played with chars bad in melee and suboptimal AR.

[dannyaic]

Originally posted by biogoo:

The auto penetrate is great, the damage of throwing weapons is not. Throwing weapons are a great way to take down Don Barlone early, as even with 0 skill, you always do damage, but thats about it.

The critical chance is 1% per 25 points of skill (in between every 25 points, you roll a dice to see if you get the lower or the higher crit chance) and it has to pass a resistance check.

Wait what? I thought it was 1% point for every 10 skill points?? Jesus that makes crits even less useful lol. I knew non faerie ninjas weren’t great but I didn’t know it was that bad