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Discussions Rules and Guidelines
16 
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In some parties it pays to have the characters that generate Soul and Element shields go first, before enemies have a chance to disable party characters. For those characters Snake Speed makes sense to help them go first in battle. The extra protection that those Soul and Element shield provide results in fewer party members being disabled and shorter durations if they are.
Speed up to 125 does provide benefits for swings and attacks, as well as a couple points of defense, so when you indicate no points over 55 that implies the use of Haste (either by Psionic or Bard) to raise it to 125 during the battle. I thoroughly agree with that strategy even though the spell cannot be cast under water.
The benefits of Haste are huge, even before it is generated at Power Level 7 (+70 Speed). For example, my Bard with Bloodlust after using Rousing Drums at Level 11 is already getting 2 attacks of 3 swings each (including the Bloodlust extra swing) during each round of battle (Level 11, Strength 104, Dexterity 97, Senses 74, Speed 85, Sword 65, Shield 44, Close Combat 49, Attack Rating 40, To Hit +15). This was measured while hunting kitty cats (Juggarnaughts) around the Arnika-Trynton road.
It's true but once you have X-ray, chameleon & hypnotic lure (without casting light ofc) you can start combat outside of monsters sight and have soul&element shield up before they can attack you. It's tricky but it works. The only problem is baijin, but it's only a minor part of the game and you can do it at higher levels anyway.
When luring enemies is not possible having 2x rings pro magic + cloak of many colors + golden breastplate on whoever can wear it put your defenses on 100% with magic screen PL7. Late game with proper equipment you can play without soul/element shield easily but that is another topic.
There are tradeoffs. I like to use those ring/special item slots for other things. Under water one of those slots is unavailable so you can breathe as well. I like the fast Soul and Element shield casting strategy, and it is a viable strategy and an exception to your rule if used, but it is not the only strategy.
One of the greatest things about this game is the variety of viable strategies, tactics and styles.
All those effects are described in peddroelm's guide in the guides section. The argument of the protection spells is mentioned there as well.
In my own games, a blitz bish or other fast caster can do more than just getting the spells off. Curing an insane or turncoat condition on a fighter, or other disabling statuses leading to more damage or lost actions. It is simply one action per round on one char, before any other char, own or enemy, strikes. Haste raises the party's total inititative, therefore the insane fighter of my example may strike before the bishop or priest can cure her.
Overall not something which is dearly needed to win the game, but, being myself very sceptical on SPD first, a very useful and character building feature.
My question is about the effect of Light, Hannibal. I have read about light raising the attention of monsters, but I could never reproduce the effect in the same situation with or without light. But I probably missed something. Can you explain your experiences with/without light a bit more in detail?
There are situations where a speedy caster can turn the tide of a battle. Like casting silence on rapax samurais & sorcerers before they are able to raise element shield, or using sane mind on a turncoated character. But even in this case there is a chance of a complete failure so SPD gives you the opportunity but the success is not granted. Insanity effects can be cheesed with secondary weapons, and turncoat spell is rarely used by monsters.
But I like piety too much (not for the SP increase, but the faster realm progression) so I tend to sacrifice SPD for PIE on casters. In the end, it's a tradeoff. Since you can only raise two attributes at a single time I feel more comfortable raising INT/PIE on casters and STR/DEX on melee characters and accepting that monsters are likely to start their actions before I do.
Another thing to consider is if the game is played on ironman or not. On ironman there is no question about it. Element & Soul casters go for 100SPD. But i'm not an ironman player.
For caster, do as you wish, but INT+PIE is just so much better for training magic and casting effectively.
True, but utilizing the strategy of fast casters for Soul and Element shield IS guaranteed (if they go first and cast at the max green PL).
In my experience the realms raise high enough and fast enough so Piety is not needed for this purpose. Nectars and Mana stones are sufficient, later, so there is never an issue of running out of mana. Mana stones even give the choice of which character to give the mana boost to, so if one or two characters have the most effective spells against those particular foes, then the other characters can boost them. In practice this is very rarely needed however, since the mana and power of the spells (if in a party that uses them heavily) can kill all enemies before running out, even for most battles on the peak.
That is important because for some attributes to be high, others need to be low. Generally I choose Piety and Vitality to be left at starting levels, putting zero points into them at creation and level-up, even the Priest (other than required minimum).
Please understand that I am not claiming that it is the only right way to go, but I am claiming that what works for me is at least also right and is very workable. I am not an Ironman player either (I like to try things) but in my current game, at level 11, I have reloaded exactly zero times other than starting after stopping like is allowed in Ironman mode. I also claim that having fast casters for those Soul and Element shields is a very certain and almost relaxed way to take on the toughest foes.
I also concur with CC on the benefits early in the game of having relatively fast casters. It turns out to be quite useful to be able to cast Heal or apply a remedy before enemies can do further damage and before that other character's turn comes up. For a fast Mage in the early game when a Sige with just a few hit points (like 15) shows up she can be taken out with a fast fireball before she gets a chance to cast Eye for Eye, Summoning or a buffing or disabling spell. This fast casting is not needed in every round of every fight but having that capability is powerful in the early game. I also agree later that it can be particularly important (sometimes, even late in the game) for casting Sane Mind on turncoated (or insane) party members. Yes the spell Turncoat is rarely targeted at the party but rearing is very common for Mares, Unicorns and Souleater. That Bard with Bloodlust or Fighter with a Light Sword is great to have on the team, but not when a party member is targeted.
Again it is not the only right way to do things but it is powerful and effective.
For ranged, to get the picture complete, I would go for DEX/SEN.
For magic, INT/PIE seem to be a natural choice. With high PIE, skills do not grow faster only because of governing attributes, but also because there are more spell points available = more casts = faster growing. INT is useful for also for Powercast. In fact I go for INT = starting value or INT = 95 + fountain bonus, never to eg 80. But honestly, the overall effect is not that big imo. The only way to get the juicy L6/7 spells off reliably at high PL is by char level, not skill level. Means the other way round, you do not lose too much if you keep INT at starting value and PIE around 50 for casters.
To make it clear: I do not say that a SPD/SEN bish is stronger than another focusing on INT/PIE, but he can do things an INT/PIE bish cannot do, as explained. I would say it is style of play.
If you never tried it, maybe take it as a motivation to do it once and look if the game plays differently, better or worse.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that well in the early game. With all focus on SPD/SEN, Highwaymen and other fast monsters will get their first attack faster than that bish. High investment is required to make it worthwhile.
Flamestryke's site provides complete information how to obtain Ankhs of Speed. I have the general problem with Ankhs that there is a fierce competition for those two miscellaneous slots. Normally I use them differently.
I will be this playthrough. I had a party, but unfortunately I lost all my saves and had to start from scratch, so a good time as any to try it out. I'm just caught between choosing a Felpurr Monk+Fairy Bishop, or Fairy Ninja+Elf Bishop. I'm leaning towards the Ninja, cause COC has much more killing potential than SOD, but the bishop will be slower for a bit longer.
I've tried Felpurr bishops, but I just can't get past the fact that it just doesn't feel right to me haha.
Do you want to play this game as a duo of 2 chars?
No sorry. I like to only use one of each race, especially when it comes to fairies, so for my last two, those are what I’m deciding in
I don't even start with slow (>50) characters and usually don't add much to that if they have more important Attributes, but i did enjoy the extra AC on my Hobbit Ninja, in a pair with a Rawulf Lord. I had modified Death Star to return, to see how OP that would be (mostly in terms of not having to shop-camp and schlep them all around), and the Ninja used only throwing, so Dex and Sen first, then Str, and Spd for the extra AC. I was happy with her rate of fire, but i really can't compare SS to no SS that way. I have played other throwing ninjas who didn't max Spd, but not side-by-side to test who gets more kills, SS or not.
I am not sure what you are talking about here, CC. In the Magic Damage party with both a Psionic and Mage (just those two out of six) going for Spd/Sen roughly equally in addition to 3 each level in Int, they become faster than at least almost all foes from level 1 onward. The usefulness at level 1 is limited because the Psionic's and Alchemist's heal spell is still in the red at PL1 at that time, but after a few successes and fizzles that changes and from about level 2 onward Heal can be cast by either at PL 1 in the green. So that works powerfully as early as level 2 and, with patchy results, level 1.
About dexterity, the focus on Str/Dex works great for a Bard who will eventually use a cursed weapon, but by pushing Dexterity hard as a third priority, for all (Gadgeteer, Priest, Alchemist) when creating the characters, it is sufficient (for those or other non-Bards) to ignore it long enough to open that second expert skill for each character.
If going for expert skills at all, it is vital to get them early because even if their controlling attribute is already 100 by definition, they start at zero and need to rise to significant levels through use and subsequent level-up boosts.
For example a Fighter will get Power Strike (virtually all players agree) but the character can contribute more with Range fighting with Eagle Eye. I am not saying neglect Dexterity, it is vital and precious, but leave it in the 50-75 range (as high as possible without slowing down the other) just long enough to open up Eagle Eye in addition to Power Strike.
Yes, Dexterity point for point contributes to Attack Rating (which determines hitting) more than the same number of points in Senses, but senses contributes some and Dexterity will be pushed also while going for the second, as soon as the first expert skill is opened up. With Eagle Eye at significant levels and Dexterity also very high or maxed that is the Fighter achieving its potential with Range fighting as well as Melee fighting, getting the most out of the character. Pushing (in this example of the Fighter, similar for other fighting classes) Str/Dex results in a bit more accuracy technically and temporarily, but in my experience the difference is an acceptable tradeoff.
If adding to accuracy is looked at as a way to reduce the number of misses, then there is a diminishing return, for example if 90% hits is increased to 95% hits (which would require actually doubling the accuracy). After the first few levels the successful hits are many and earlier focusing on the wide front line and peppering enemies with as many attempts as possible is effective for the foes near that level. The accuracy only needs to be sufficient to reliably and consistently take care of the foes faced at that level.
There are other examples: For the Alchemist getting Power Strike in addition to an earlier Power Cast makes that Staff of Doom a disabling nightmare for foes near the end of the game in melee situations.
Obtaining expert skills is non-intuitive and inconvenient, whether Snake Speed, Eagle Eye or whatever, but they are potentially strategically sound (depending on the party and style) and make powerful characters through the end of the game.
In reviewing this thread I thought I would comment upon the impact of having the Light spell active. Players have indicated that the Light spell being active makes the party easier to spot since the earliest boards, just after the game came out. I have seen no evidence presented either way but expect from consensus and my own experience that it is probably true. Chameleon is not, however, entirely negated, even with the Light spell active and it remains very useful up for avoiding unwanted encounters temporarily or entirely until about level 10 or so. After that, for a well-developed (full) party, who wants to hide?