Gimmick Parties

[PurpleXVI]

I usually always set up a party for what I feel is "effective," in general my favourite setup is:

Fighter, Bard, Gadgeteer, Ranger, Bishop, Bishop, then picking up RFS-81 and Vi to patch up the resulting combat holes.

But I always feel an itching urge to try something *wacky* and unusual. I feel like not having a Bard and/or Gadgeteer, though, is kind of asking for pain. The Bard I could see myself doing without, though going without the Gadgeteer means going without not just a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ of handy utility options, but also being unable to craft the Tripleshot Crossbow which is seriously one of the raddest ranged weapon options(always goes on my Fighter/Lord/Valkyrie other tank equivalent to make them a master of heavy damage).

Bishops are usually the caster I go with because they're always handy in some way. Psionicists and Alchemists both have good spells... but super limited selections, while Clerics can mostly only buff and Mages are mostly slanted towards blasting.

How viable is a party made up entirely of Hybrid classes? I was thinking of doing something like... two monks(very limited gear competition), one Ninja, one Samurai(to avoid too much overlapping gear), and then I'm not sure what to do for the last two slots. I want to stay a bit silly, but I also want to not make playing too painful. This setup covers Psionics, Alchemy and Mage casting as Hybrid alternates... how much does it such to play without any primary casters? The last two slots could fit at least one Cleric and maybe one alternate, or I could jam in a Lord and a Valkyrie to get two Divinity caster Hybrids.

It'd probably mean doing the entire Monastery without spells and with few/limited ranged options.

Any thoughts? Monk, Monk, Ninja, Samurai, Lord, Valkyrie party. How much suffering and suckitude am I in for if I roll with this ridiculous setup?

[CeterumCenseo]

There was a thread about a party with 4 Fairie Hybrids in this forum a couple of months ago.

From my experience with the game I would expect:
Phase 1: MA damage rules in the early game
Phase 2: Offensive AoE and status effects.
Phase 3: Defense development, both equipment and spells
Phase 4: End is melee offense.
Because of missing specialist casters or Bishops, I expect issues compared to your standard setup in phases 2 and 3.
Phase 4 will be easy, if you prepare skill development and weapon selection (short vs. extended melee) properly.
Instead of a second monk, consider taking a Ranger. giving you another hybrid class, you get some ranged capability, and a second alchemist is imv more effective than a second psionic from midgame onwards.

I do not expect you'll miss bard or gadgeteer. Both in the spell and melee section, your party is better, and you can train one of your hybrids for ranged as well. Tripleshot is available from Madras, if you take him with you for a while instead of RFS or Vi.

Definitely doable, but you will almost certainly miss some of the capabilities of a standard party in the midgame.

Have fun

[PurpleXVI]

I've been somewhat underwhelmed with Rangers, honestly. My only reason for ever bringing one is that I'm too lazy to manually Search and early on that provides a bit more guaranteed gear and loot.

And I dislike wasting any time on the RPC's I don't intend to carry to the endgame(are there actually any options other than Vi and RFS that don't complain all the way up Ascension Peak? I brought Tantris once, and the game's last voice clip was him whining that he should've stayed at Marten's Bluff, which was admittedly somewhat hilarious). It's just wasted XP if I bring them along.

[biogoo]

Hybrids are fine. Many have already completed the game with hybrids only parties, with this or that character composition. Maybe not the best for minmaxing, but if you plan on a slightly longer game, you can take them instead of pure casters to provide buffs.

Vi and RFS surely are good choices, but other RPCs may be helpful as well. Saxx is one of the better picks, even if you have your own bard - there are two "heal all" instruments available, and if you play a bloodlust bard, Saxx can do the buffs for you. I often carry him around in a permanent defensive stance, only playing music. His high starting level and music skill are also very impressive, especially if recruited early.

Hunter may be weaker than some other hybrids, being less offensive than samurai and less defensive than lord/valkyrie, but he does bring the best spell school with him and is better than ninja with it (due to faster leveling). Hunter suffers a bit from the ranged weapons though. To make him as good as others, you have to provide him with the best ammunition. But once you do, he will feel great - problem is, you can give the same ammunition to others, who will do just as well, as long as you dont expect them to hit targets at the far edge of the long range zone. So, what about turning the tables and making your hunter a mook and equip him with the giants sword? ;)

[PurpleXVI]

If I was going to do a big 2H bashy guy, I'd probably be more tempted to roll with a Mook Fighter. Just double down on the hacking and the slashing. My Sword&Board Fighter armed with Fang is currently my MvP for sure in my current playthrough, at least in terms of raw damage output.

I think in part I'm trying to avoid all of my usual choices as much as possible... but I just find it hard to go with any of the other RPC's in part because of the annoyance in how many zones they won't visit and will therefore be heavily penalized in when I drag them along anyway.

[llaamaboy]

Im using [with a lot of fun] Mook Figher, Bard, Bishop, Alc, Ninja with corpus, Throwing Ninja with polearm. The 4 portals are nice, and with 4 elementals, battle fields are interestering. The only "pain" is the short cain with everyone else with extended.

[Thick McRunFast]

Probably my favorite gimmick party was a band of rampaging barbarians. 3 max STR Mook fighters with Giant swords. Another mook that starts as fighter, with enough stats to switch to bard at level 2 (also with max starting STR), levels it for long enough to cover the good instruments and handle lockpicking, then switches back to fighter. Also using a giant sword. Then a Priest, who was probably there to perform last rites over the many, many dead which got in the way, but ultimately spent most of their time casting rest all. And a Bishop, presumably along to try and civilize the barbarians, but usually casting various buff spells. Definitely the most testosterone fueled party I've ever run...and the damage those berserking giant sword wielders can pump out was staggering. Especially once enemies start getting KO'd.

[PurpleXVI]

I was considering 2x Mook Fighter, backed up by 1 Ninja(for Alchemy), one Monk(for Psionics), one Samurai(for Wizardry) and one Lord or Valkyrie(can't decide which is superior, for Divinity.).

And possibly going with zero RPC's for the sake of increasing level gain speed.

[CeterumCenseo]

For Lord vs. Valk: How do you think about party formation? Valk with Polearm Bonus can stand in the 2nd row, lord has more options for the frontline.

[PurpleXVI]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

For Lord vs. Valk: How do you think about party formation? Valk with Polearm Bonus can stand in the 2nd row, lord has more options for the frontline.

Honestly I was thinking I'd completely ignore the front and rear quadrants. Either three right and three left, or 2/2/2 across the central line. Opening up the front and rear quadrants to EVERYONE would avoid situations where anyone can't get into the scrum.

Mind, this would be my first run with a "non-traditional" party, i.e. no setup with particularly squishy casters and strong tank fighters to protect them, so I'm not sure whether it's possible to squeeze, say, more than 3 characters into the central quadrant so everyone's equally free to stab and get stabbed.

[CeterumCenseo]

3 Chars per quadrant is max. I asked because short weapons can only attack adjacent quadrant, and extended one further. Means extended weapons provide you more flexibility. Polearms, 2Hd Staves and Giant Sword and a few others are extended, rest is short.
Then Valk is preferable over Lord.

[PurpleXVI]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

3 Chars per quadrant is max. I asked because short weapons can only attack adjacent quadrant, and extended one further. Means extended weapons provide you more flexibility. Polearms, 2Hd Staves and Giant Sword and a few others are extended, rest is short.
Then Valk is preferable over Lord.

Actually with regards to extended vs normal weapons, one thing I haven't quite been able to figure out is, with a Monk, is unarmed combat superior to wielding, say, the Zatoichi Bo?

[CeterumCenseo]

No. I do not have the calculation at hand, but the MA-Monk is one of the strongest DDs, if not the strongest at all in early to midgame due to damage scaling with MA skill. But later, MA falls behind the endgame weapons. If you didn't go for a party of 6, I'd suggest to train both, but with the damage your party does you simply do not have enough strikes to get them both to 90+ WS.

Edit: Otoh: Zatoichi Bo is probably the strongest guaranteed weapon.

[Nuee]

Good question on the Monk I had always wondered that as well.

[PurpleXVI]

Plus, I assume your odds of landing crit hits are directly proportional to how many hits you're actually landing, since each gets a separate roll to insta-splat something. And you get more hits with unarmed combat, as far as I can tell, than with a staff.

Obviously crits mean less training due to less hits ending up landing... but at the same time instacritting a nasty foe can also be what wins you a fight, sometimes.

[CeterumCenseo]

True, monks can crit. Chance is 1% crit chance per 25 skill, means a maximum of 4% crit chance at 100 skill. While this looks good in reading, the actual effect in the game is much less than expected, given the maximum of 15 attacks per round for a monk. I once used double Sai on a Ninja, also with 15 attacks and even 10% crit chance per hit (5% Ninja + 5% Sai). Disappointing.
I would not create a build around that again.

The only combinations with positive crit experience for me were SoD and CoC, with 15% crit each.

One other thing about the role of the monk in your party. Psionics has lots of options in the first combat rounds with spells: Haste, Lure, Insanity, Pandemonium, a bit damage. So depending on your play style, you might find yourself often in situations, where the fighters will be mostly responsible for your damage department, and your monk will strike occasionally only.