The Game is not very well Balanced ^^

[GameNerdVeggie]

I run very different Parties. My Favorite Fluff one contains 1 Samurai, 1 Lord/Valkyrie, 1 Ninja/Monk/Fighter, 1 Bishop, 1 Bard, 1 Gadgeteer. I even made an Elven Samurai/Fighter with AC 60.

Badly:
No Party is more OP than 3 Fighters especially Mooks with Giant's Swords and 3 Bishops. Especially 3 Portals are great for Fast Travel and if all Spells fail against Enemies you can put out 3 Elementals.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Originally posted by vysionier:

forgot to mention the battle priest with mace and shield close up and bullwhip/vampire chain and shield for extended. It works quite well for me.

This is an excellent and new (at least for me) idea. In one of the posts above I spoke about a priest build that focuses on a melee capability instead of just magic. In that build range (with a sling) is neglected and mostly worthless. to instead use a whip and a shield in the extended slot makes total sense and takes advantage of the fact Mace and Flail skill is used by both and that doing this will help both.

One possible refinement of your idea to consider, Vysionier: Unless the default gets messed up the weapon will switch to melee when enemies come into range. Therefore, if working perfectly, the shield worn with the extended weapon will not protect. The shield with the whip protects against the whip accidentally becoming the default when in melee range, but some care can prevent that.

IIRC, their are two excellent whips in the game, Vampire Chain and the Cat O Nine Tails. it is possible to use both. I have had a Priest do that in the past (instead of a mace and shield) and they do get good damage (in spite of no Dual Weapons Skill) but (the way I did it) give up the protection of the shied (+4 AC is a lot). However, within your idea, if the extended weapons are both excellent whips then, whenever enemies come to within melee range the shield with the mace will protect.

I am not sure how perfectly that might work but it might be worth a try.

Not exactly sure what you are saying with the no protection comment, so I’ll clarify what I’m saying to see if there’s a misunderstanding ;)

With my battle priest, I use a mace and shield for close combat, then at extended range I use my whip with a shield. So in effect I have two shields equipped but only use the corresponding shield with the weapon I’m using. The advantage here is that at no point am I fighting without a shield equipped as I would with a sling for instance. So I will have shield ac against attacks at all ranges (except backstabbing of course! Lol).

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Not exactly sure what you are saying with the no protection comment

I am assuming that the shield is primarily a melee protection tool, an impression I have from my games (no more than opinion). I am also assuming that in melee range the mace and shield are your default. Whenever enemies come into melee range it should switch to that (or there will almost always be an opportunity to manually switch it if needed). What I am saying, is that against melee attacks, if you set it up that way it will always be the shield with the mace that attempts to protect against melee attacks.

In assuming that I was discounting the value of the shield to protect against range attacks (the casted Missile Shield buff is the main defense for that) but it is true that if enemies are no closer than extended range and the whip is the current weapon that it would be the shield with that whip that would attempt to help protect against range (or enemy extended) attacks that hit.

Hey, this (using both excellent whips) is just a possible idea to consider as a possible refinement of your idea. No guarantees it will work as well as it seems to in my mind. No guarantee it will work at all.

[vysionier]

Oh that’s what you were saying! I actually have no idea if switching whips would work. My goal with that setup is when close up you do stronger damage with the mauler then extended you can still do decent damage with vampire chain. The other goal of course is to increase the ac uniformly for all damage types, and with a str/int build or str/dex build there’ll be more than enough carry capacity due to light armor restrictions. The extended/ranged ac is more of an afterthought really, I’m sure he’d be fine without it.

[mpnorman10]

It is possible we may not have connected on what I propose quite yet. You spoke of "switching whips" which is an expression I do not follow in this context. I am proposing. like you said, Mauler (for example) and shield for melee and Vampire Chain with Cat O Nine Tails (dual weapons) for extended range and nothing (except spells) for enemies farther away, plus all of the Priest defensive spell options, of course. Perhaps that is what you understood but when you mentioned "switching whips" it confused me.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

It is possible we may not have connected on what I propose quite yet. You spoke of "switching whips" which is an expression I do not follow in this context. I am proposing. like you said, Mauler (for example) and shield for melee and Vampire Chain with Cat O Nine Tails (dual weapons) for extended range and nothing (except spells) for enemies farther away. Perhaps that is what you understood but when you mentioned "switching whips" it confused me.

I think I was confused because you can’t dual wield whips?

[mpnorman10]

Why not? I have done it before unless my memory is faulty (always a possibility).

Edit: Gosh, maybe my memory was faulty. I just looked up both Vampire Chain and Cat O Nine Tails on the Flamestryke site and both only say Primary. I know Bullwhip can be used in the secondary slot but I thought I remembered using both Vampire Chain and Cat O Nine Tails together.

Not sure if a Bullwhip instead of a shield is worth it.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Why not? I have done it before unless my memory is faulty (always a possibility).

Lol, You’re probably thinking of a different game Here. Dual wielding isn’t possible with any extended range weapon.

[mpnorman10]

Odd, I used dual whips a LOT in this game (Vanilla, not mod), starting with dual Bullwhips. I doubt my memory could be that bad (scary if it is). I remember moving away from it in favor of the shield and also, the Strength Bonus is only 50% when using a whip than when using a Mace.

This is one of those rare cases when the Flamestryke site might be wrong.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Odd, I used dual whips a LOT in this game (Vanilla, not mod), starting with dual Bullwhips. I doubt my memory could be that bad (scary if it is). I remember moving away from it in favor of the shield and also, the Strength Bonus is only 50% when using a whip than when using a Mace.

This is one of those rare cases when the Flamestryke site might be wrong.

This is a moment where I’d highly encourage you to try it again. I’ve only ever played vanilla (with a few exceptions temporary) and have tried many combinations of weapons pretty extensively.

[mpnorman10]

Yes, I am going to have to. Jeff's list of weapons does not discuss that point either. Flamestryke says they are Primary.

The closest I have found is a thread by Edelward on this board from April 6, 2015. It is titled something about "rare weapons" but in particular he is looking for good offhand weapons.

He does a followup post when he mentions Vampire Chain, Cat O Nine Tails and Diamond Eyes. It is not clear from context whether he is saying those are off hand weapons or merely rare, but it seems like the former to me. I did not see that thread before my posts above, but only going from memory of playing with dual whips in this game. (it really is scary if such a vivid memory is faulty). Do you have any save games with those weapons Vysionier. I checked and do not, but of course I can look for this in a new game.

[vysionier]

I’ll be playing tonight after I play pathfinder with a few friends :) I’m sure a have a save squirreled away somewhere with a whip of any type. My experience with whips are as such: putting anything in the offhand except a shield while wielding one Will drop the whip.

[mpnorman10]

I have been hunting through my saved games and found both a Vampire Chain and a Bull Whip. Neither can be equipped in the off-hand slot.

My memories are from about 20 years ago, shortly after the game came out. I abandoned use of Whips because at Strength 100 the bonus is +50% instead of +100% (which I just verified). I decided because of that the Priest would be better off with a Mace. That does not invalidate using the Vampire Chain in what would otherwise be the range slot. I like that idea a lot since the undeveloped sling remains pretty pathetic after the few increases obtained through the little bit of use it gets.

Since I verified this for the Vampire Chain and Bullwhip, I must be wrong about the Cat as well. Please forgive my faulty recall. It has happened before but that is why we verify.

Given that as a fact then using the shield with the chain makes sense, and that use of the Vampire Chain will, by chance, result in additional increases to the Mace and Flail skill which will also help the Mace, a huge additional benefit because Maces and Whips happen to be within the same category of weapon.

[vysionier]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

I have been hunting through my saved games and found both a Vampire Chain and a Bull Whip. Neither can be equipped in the off-hand slot.

My memories are from about 20 years ago, shortly after the game came out. I abandoned use of Whips because at Strength 100 the bonus is +50% instead of +100% (which I just verified). I decided because of that the Priest would be better off with a Mace. That does not invalidate using the Vampire Chain in what would otherwise be the range slot. I like that idea a lot since the undeveloped sling remains pretty pathetic after the few increases obtained through the little bit of use it gets.

Since I verified this for the Vampire Chain and Bullwhip, I must be wrong about the Cat as well. Please forgive my faulty recall. It has happened before but that is why we verify.

Given that as a fact then using the shield with the chain makes sense, and that use of the Vampire Chain will, by chance, result in additional increases to the Mace and Flail skill which will also help the Mace, a huge additional benefit because Maces and Whips happen to be within the same category of weapon.

No need to apologize! To err is human. Btw, what year did this game come out? Was it 99? Or 2001? I remember getting it in disc form from the bargain bin in 2002 I think.

[mpnorman10]

It was 2001, I believe. The manual with the original game reports a copyright of 2001.

When they finished the game, all of the usual distribution channels were tied up or maybe monopolized by game console toy companies. Typically a publisher would pay (finance) the company to distribute the game, but all that had changed due to game consoles.

Desperate and with no other way to publish the game, the retailer, "Babbages" financed the publishing of the game in exchange for a one-month exclusive. For one month only Babbages retailers could sell the game. I was there on the first day Babbages offered it for sale.

But the trouble was not over for Sir Tech. Retailers other than Babbages, denied that vital first month of sales, got on a high horse about it and refused to sell the game at all, refusing to carry it even after the one month period was over.

So, bottom line, I am not at all surprised you could buy the game from a bargain bin as early as 2002.

[vysionier]

Wow. Thank you for that! Wiz 8 got screwed big time. It’s such a shame that would happen.