What happens when you change your class?

[When Can I Sleep]

I didn;t see anything in the manual about what changing classes does to your skills and attributes. Can someone enlighten me? thanks

[Dr. Darklight]

The equipment you can use and the skills you can train change. Most gadgets and instruments can still be used. All spells you have can be used. However, if you switch to something like a fighter, you may have difficulty castings spells until you have gained some levels in the new class.

[CeterumCenseo]

Changing class means basically getting the traits of the new class and losing the traits of the old one. What has been learned in your old class, stays, but cannot be improved anymore. Equipment must be wearable by the new class.
Changing class also awards basic skill values of of that class, unless your level was already higher in that skill than before.

Example (theoretical), change Fighter to Mage:

Fighter has traits Berserk Attack and bonus to close combat, this is lost. Mage gets +5 resistance vs all and bonus to Wizardry skill, and one L1 spell.
If you had some points in dual wield skill, they stay, but dual wielding wands no further improves it, because Mage doesn't have dual wield.
Mage will lose all armor equipment except those items a mage can wear: Robes, Skullcap, Quarterstaff Sandals
Changing to mage gives starting skill points in Wizardry and 4 realms.

Experience is gained after the skill according to your total character level, not class level.
Changing from Fighter to Mage at L5 (8000 XP) means you get your next level up at (8000 + 9600 = 17.600 XP).

HPs earned as a Fighter are kept, but levels in Mage give less HPs than levels in Fighter, so subsequent HPs are awarded according to Mage progress.

Then Change Mage to Alchemist:
Mage loses +5 resistances and bonus to wizardry, gets bonus to Alchemy and potion mixing while camping. Mage spells are kept, but cannot further improve and casting those spells does not increase realm skill. Spells shared between Mage and Alchemist do improve and increase realm skill.
Alchemist can wear heavier armor than mage and also a shield. If the character earned shield skill as a Fighter, this skill now improves again.
Alchemist will probably not receive bonus points in realms, as his skill points at the time of the change are probably higher than the starting values of the Alchemist.

I hope this makes it clear.

[Skleedle]

haha interesting examples, and ones i'd never do.
Some class changes are worth it, for example if you want a stealthy fighter you can be a rogue for a level and grind your stealth. Another worthwhile program would be changing between Bishop and Monk (Elves can do this easily with their stats) because it enables you to learn all the buffs and be stealthy and good at punching everything. These things are best left to smaller parties, though, because the development takes enough levels that you wouldn't get in a party of 6-8. Especially Solos and Duos benefit much from the right class changes.

The most important difference between Wiz 7 and 8 is your XP doesn't revert to 0 in 8, so you keep needing more XP for each level, regardless of changing class.

[Uncle Al]

For spells your caster level is tracked individually for each class, and then added together if it's for the same school of magic.

This has a couple of effects - first off it means offensive spell casting is pretty much useless if you class change to a different school of magic, because your caster levels are going to be too low and relative level between caster and target has a huge impact. I see people do things like level as a mage for three levels then change to a bishop, to get the wizard buffs quickly, but that means your bishop will be at a permanent -3 to caster level for all spells except mage ones.

I suppose it might work if you were just going to move to wizardry/divinity and not a 3 or 4 school bishop, where you don't really care about the divinity offensive spells, so the lower caster level in divinity doesn't matter so much.

I don't know what happens if a spell is present in multiple spellbooks and you have different caster levels in both. I'd hope you get to use your highest caster level in that case.

The other notable effect of the way caster levels work for multiclasses, is that it can be worthwhile levelling a bit as a pure caster then class changing to a hybrid class with the same magic type. You end up with a hybrid who's a stronger caster than usual, at the expense of your combat skills.

Usually hybrids get level-4 as caster level, so they start learning magic at level 5 and cast as if they were a first level caster. If you gain levels in say, mage, and then swap to samurai your caster level will be just as good as a pure samurai, but you can have more points in wizardry and get access to some great spells earlier.

Note that you will not be able to improve your wizardry skill once you change to samurai, until you gain your fifth level of samurai. You can still do fun things like take three levels of mage, to get enchanted blade and missile shield, then swap to samurai and you'll still be able to cast those buffs, you just won't gain skill by doing so. When you hit level 8 (5 levels of samurai) you can start learning wizardry again and your caster skills will be strong because you pumped them for the first three levels. This probably works best for a staff wielding samurai because you'll be significantly behind in sword skill.

The same trick works nicely going priest to lord or even priest to valkyrie - although same problem changing to valkyrie, you can't start working on polearm skill as a priest, whereas a mace wielding lord can be developing weapon skill as a priest. Guess you could have a mace wielding valkyrie, no reason not to.

[When Can I Sleep]

Thank you all for your insights. I am planning to change my mage ot a samurai.

Youe mentioned below that:

Originally posted by Uncle Al:

... If you gain levels in say, mage, and then swap to samurai your caster level will be just as good as a pure samurai, but you can have more points in wizardry and get access to some great spells earlier.

Why woudl it be "...your caster level will be just as good as a pure samurai..." ? If you add all the caster levels together, (like you mentioned in the first statement), wouldn't your caster level be better than that of a pure samurai (+3 levels as in your example)?

Thanks

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by When Can I Sleep:

Thank you all for your insights. I am planning to change my mage ot a samurai.

Youe mentioned below that:

Originally posted by Uncle Al:

... If you gain levels in say, mage, and then swap to samurai your caster level will be just as good as a pure samurai, but you can have more points in wizardry and get access to some great spells earlier.

Why woudl it be "...your caster level will be just as good as a pure samurai..." ? If you add all the caster levels together, (like you mentioned in the first statement), wouldn't your caster level be better than that of a pure samurai (+3 levels as in your example)?

Thanks

To clarify, I meant an eighth level dual class character who has 3 mage levels and 5 samurai levels will have the same caster level (four) as an eighth level pure samurai.

As experience requirements don't reset on class change unlike the old wizardry games, you can't 'catch up' levels in your new class rapidly, so your mage/samurai dual classer will reach level 5 in samurai at roughly the same time single class characters in the party reach level 8.

The dual classer will always be 3 levels lower in samurai levels than your party average, but because their 3 mage levels add to caster level, their caster level won't be worse than a single class hybrid with the same amount of exp. It won't be any better though.

Oh I forgot to mention you'll also get your extra attacks and swings a bit later as a dual classer, but the effect is pretty minimal - roughly like losing 4 points of DEX or SPD, or 3 points of weapon skill, for every level you spend as a pure caster rather than a hybrid.

Another way of looking at it is you'll get your multiple attacks a level or two later than a pure samurai with the same skills and stats.

The lower weapon skills from starting out in caster class (especially if you start mage but want to use swords) and the stat distribution you need to change classes will have much more of an impact but there is a slight effect from not being in a pure combat class all your life. Attacks and swings have a cap, so at high levels you'll be just as good as a pure Samurai though.

If you want to see the real in depth numbers on that stuff then check out pedroelm's excellent 'WIP Guide' in the Guides section.

[When Can I Sleep]

Thx! Sounds like if you plan to switch to samurai it is better to just start with samurai

[CeterumCenseo]

The only advantage to have a mage first is to get early access to 2 L1 spells, which you can use in your early Samurai career.
But you will miss the Samurai starting equipment, you will most often have no sword and as such miss the skill bonus and the Samurai trait, which is (very occasional) Lightning Strike.
To change classes, you need to comply with the minimum attribute requirements for the Samurai class, which requires careful planning.

Bottom line: Dual Classing has its good points, but unless someone knows exactly what he/she is doing, it is not recommended.

[vysionier]

Only thing I’d like to add, is that class switching can allow you to get to 100 in a stat earlier in some cases. This can be useful for hybrids who level slower and don’t often start with a large amount of stat points.

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

The only advantage to have a mage first is to get early access to 2 L1 spells, which you can use in your early Samurai career.
But you will miss the Samurai starting equipment, you will most often have no sword and as such miss the skill bonus and the Samurai trait, which is (very occasional) Lightning Strike.
To change classes, you need to comply with the minimum attribute requirements for the Samurai class, which requires careful planning.

Bottom line: Dual Classing has its good points, but unless someone knows exactly what he/she is doing, it is not recommended.

Getting the two spells at the start isn't that great an advantage, because as soon as you switch to Samurai you lose the ability to gain skill ups in wizardry and realm skills until you get your casting powers back at Samurai level 5.

The big advantage is being able to pump 13 or so points into Wizardry at level 1, so when you reach level six and get your casting abilities back you can put 3 more points in and gain access to level 2 spells the earliest you possibly can (learning level 2 spells requires character level 7 and 15 magic skill for a hybrid).

A pure class samurai has zero wizardry at level 5, so you need to do some serious spell grinding to get that to 15 by level 7. Especially as you'll have one spell and about 5 spell points...

As well as changing at level 1 you can change after 3 mage levels, which means you have access to missile shield and enchanted blade very early. Similarly doing a swap at 5 from priest to valkyrie or lord can gain early access to magic screen and armourplate, which are also staple buffs.

The trade off is the later you swap the longer you'll have to spend in your four 'dead' levels once you change to your hybrid class, because generally the higher level you are the slower you go up in level. During the 'dead' levels you can't raise your school skill or magic realms, so if you swap late you spend a really long time not gaining any magic skills through play, which hurts your long term magical development. If you don't mind grind training skills this doesn't really matter, but personally I loathe doing that.

As a side note, a feature of the 'Wizardry Enhanced' mod is it makes hybrid classes get their magic school as a class skill. That means you can put points into it before they get their casting ability, so they're not so horribly behind in skill when they finally do get their cast ability without having to muck around with class changes. Of course you still need to sacrifice a combat skill at level up in order to push up your magic school skill.

I really like that change (although I don't really like some of the other changes in that mod so I just use Cosmic forge to change the skills but use the regular Christian Coder mod).

[CeterumCenseo]

Originally posted by Uncle Al:

The big advantage is being able to pump 13 or so points into Wizardry at level 1, so when you reach level six and get your casting abilities back you can put 3 more points in and gain access to level 2 spells the earliest you possibly can (learning level 2 spells requires character level 7 and 15 magic skill for a hybrid).

A pure class samurai has zero wizardry at level 5, so you need to do some serious spell grinding to get that to 15 by level 7. Especially as you'll have one spell and about 5 spell points...

I think all hybrids get 5 skill in their magic school at L5.

[Uncle Al]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

Originally posted by Uncle Al:

The big advantage is being able to pump 13 or so points into Wizardry at level 1, so when you reach level six and get your casting abilities back you can put 3 more points in and gain access to level 2 spells the earliest you possibly can (learning level 2 spells requires character level 7 and 15 magic skill for a hybrid).

A pure class samurai has zero wizardry at level 5, so you need to do some serious spell grinding to get that to 15 by level 7. Especially as you'll have one spell and about 5 spell points...

I think all hybrids get 5 skill in their magic school at L5.

Yes, you're quite right, my mistake.

I'm taking it all back about the 'one level of mage and then change to bishop' approach too!

Now I know exactly how much caster level affects things (less than I thought, it's having power cast that's crucial - a hybrid can be a perfectly good end game offensive caster so long as they learn a reasonable amount of power cast) I completely see the point of taking a mage level -

You get to distribute your stats better (at least with races like elf which are a usual pick) and you get a pile of points in Fire/Water/Air/Mental.

I can see the earlier power cast from higher starting int and the decent realm skills offsets losing a caster level in non mage spells.