Locks

[mpnorman10]

Their are some observations on locks I would like to share. There is a load of experience, of course, but this time I watched some things closely and want to throw the observations out there to other players in case they wish to comment or share similar or contrary experiences.

1) The retro dungeons are great for experience with locks and traps. For the dagger dungeon the (Gadgeteer) rose in skill from 60 to 64, and in the short staff dungeon the skill raised from 72 to 76. It takes some patience, but not infinite...

2) Because sometimes a skill increase is just not going to happen on a particular lock, no matter how long you grind at it. I find that if the skill does not increase within say 10 minutes of trying a lock that it will not give an increase for hours. Perhaps it will if more than a day in-game goes by, but...

3) One increase per lock... at least unless mega sleeping in between.

4) Several doable locks will often result in an increase. It does not have to be a super hard one (obvious to anyone who has played but for completeness).

It seems to work well to try (for example an 8 tumbler lock) for about up to 20 minutes... or maybe just 5 or 10, before giving up on an increase and using knock-knock to reduce the difficulty. If there is an increase it might be time immediately to use that spell.

5) Taking the identify item spell early on for the Priest (and Vi if used) and building up the mental realm with id of items has the side benefit of building it up for Divine Trap. Raising the skill of the Gadgeteer to 100-110 using that spell at power level 7 seems to move one nicely beyond those dangerous Heat Wave and Philosopher traps.

[CeterumCenseo]

To prove or falsify your observations, some tests would be necessary eg going with the same character to different locks several times just before or immediately after a skill increase.

I did not do such kind of things yet, but personally I think the Silicoid formulas for skill increases also apply in this case, but much delayed compared to other skills, where a few swings or casts already provide an increase. It could be that 800 ticks are needed for a skill increase instead of 8. I would also expect the logic of "successes" = a tumbler is kept in upper position to give more ticks than a miss. This would explain your observation, why L&T continues to increase with a good skill level, while otherwise diminishing returns dominate.

Of course, this is all speculation, but why should Sir-Tech include another skill increase system just for L&T? Better to use the existing system and nerf it to the desired level.

I once had a solo ninja with zero L&T skill trying to open the lock with the Ring in the LM. The girl could not use the Poseur's cap, so I had to open that 2 tumbler lock with zero skill (I wanted to kee the nearby lockpicks for "later use"). It took me about 500 attempts before the lock opened, and the L&T skill rose to 1. Yeah!

I had traps blow up at a skill as high as "123%" already, including the DT bonus. Below 100%, higher traps like Heatwave and Philosopher's seem to set off more often than not on expert (don't know if this is difficulty level related as well).

It is generally advised to increase L&T rather on traps than on locks. In favour of locks is the fact that nagging on a lock does not count as "grind".

[vysionier]

Not sure if you guys already said this, but I think the way locks improve your skill is similar to buff magic; one skill increase chance per rest/combat on each lock. But here’s the thing, you won’t know whether you’ve gained experience towards the next skill up unless you are close enough to increase your skill.

So I guess to sum up what I’m saying is that if you play with the same lock forever you’ll never see an improvement, but if you try with several for a couple minutes each then sleep/combat whatever then do it again you’ll see actual improvement very quickly. Good example of this would be the dungeons.

[A'zerit]

Traps are the way to go. Locks might give a point now and again but are much less grindable.

I just can't sit in front of a chest to try for multiple skillups, though it is possible. Takes ~25 inspects at average-ish int iirc. For serious grinding, I aim for one per chest. It's not too bad, move on, do the next one.

Not grinding at all, hitting multiple chests, it seems to take less total to get a point. However each gizmo you unlock in the trap interface can provide skill so it's hard to say.

Definitely a priority for level-up points.

[mpnorman10]

These are very interesting replies and I thank you for them.

At one time, shortly after the initial release of the game, when the development team was still active, the (other player) recommendation for grinding "Locks and Traps" skill was to sit at the 8-tumbler lock at the bank in Arnika and just keep trying. It would result in increase after increase up until the skill was high enough so the lock actually opened.

This was not acceptable to the developers and they "did something". Now if you try the same thing you get no or one increase over hours... unless, as Vysionier says, you do other stuff for a while and then come back to it.

I was not attempting to suggest a manner of grinding Locks and Traps skill, but rather observations of its improvement through use. I am certain that the Silicoid formulas still apply. The change that prevents multiple increases by beating ones head against a single lock certainly did not change the underlying formulas. I do not know what the developers did to implement the change.

While I do not generally find grinding fun, there are gray areas. Perhaps trying to open a lock without spells, resulting in eventual success and skill increases (like after 10 minutes) can be termed as grinding, but I do not think of it as such and put it, instead, into the category of using character skills to make them even better. I think of these things as "requiring patience" but is that so different from grinding? I guess the line for me is to allow myself to change the manner of accomplishing an actual required task in the game, but in a manner that promotes skill increases. Within this I include mixing potions one at a time and healing after battle using only Power Level 1 heal spells, as well as recasting buffs early and often. The task of mixing or healing is optionally needed in the game, but the manner of doing it increases the chance of skill increase while taking more time and requiring more patience.

There is nothing wrong with grinding and it is necessary for some challenging situations. There is no right or wrong with any of this.

CC regarding the example of the Ninja getting an increase after 500 tries, a couple things. One is that 500 tries only takes about 10 or 20 minutes. The other is that there seems to be an additional chance for an increase when a trap is successfully disarmed or a lock is successfully opened, at least there has been increases at the point of that event enough times to represent a tendency. I do not know if the "trial" for the Locks and Traps case is a tumbler sticking or a tumbler remaining up as it enters Silicoid's formula. The only thing special about Locks and Traps... maybe... is whatever the developers did to make continuous grinding on a single lock ineffective in raising that skill to high levels. There were other changes to prevent grinding at the same time but I do not remember the details. They never shared what they did exactly. Some new players coming in thought they needed to do excessive grinding just to be successful in playing the game and there were some complaints among them about the game, in part because of that, being boring... which is why the developers acted, I believe.

In the retro dungeons, the increases I am referring to come only from picking locks and traps that are there, blocking doors. I try to be thorough and search everywhere in each tiny dungeon, and will spend considerable time attempting a difficult lock without using "Knock-Knock"... but only that. There have been as many as 7 increases in the dagger dungeon, from earlier games, but it varies. The four increases in each of the first two dungeons was typical and just from the current game. While there is no guarantee that Heat Wave or Philosopher's traps will not fire, it certainly helps to eventually have as much skill as possible when those dangers are faced.

[vysionier]

Sorry I didn’t really explain very well! I wasn’t trying to explain how to grind so much as provide an example of the logic involved.

I guess I’m trying to say there’s one skill check each lock you try and it’s decided somewhat randomly when you are picking it. The skill check then gets added to the counter. So no one lock can give you a full skill increase, only several locks can accumulate enough checks to get you a skill increase.

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Sorry I didn’t really explain very well! I wasn’t trying to explain how to grind so much as provide an example of the logic involved.

I guess I’m trying to say there’s one skill check each lock you try and it’s decided somewhat randomly when you are picking it. The skill check then gets added to the counter. So no one lock can give you a full skill increase, only several locks can accumulate enough checks to get you a skill increase.

Yes, exactly. That is my understanding as well of what underlies the observations. It always goes back to the forumilas.

[CeterumCenseo]

I do not know, of course, but I would guess that the skill check is against each tumbler, not the complete lock. Otherwise you would get the increase when the lock is touched first or not at all.

Right?

[mpnorman10]

The only reason to consider other than that, CC, as you suggested in your first post, is so it would scale, making more difficult locks, relative to current skill, more likely to result in an increase.

Like all skills I am sure the chance of increase goes down the closer 100 is approached. Harder locks seem more likely to result in an increase but that could just have to do with the fact there are more tumblers and the time working on it is longer. There may be something extra when a lock or trap is successfully opened.

The bottom line is that I do not know either (shrug)... but hopefully these observations will be useful. I think I spend less time on locks (even though it is a lot, still) because these observations help me decide when nothing or nothing more is going to happen on that particular lock being attempted at this time and to move on.

[brantnuttall]

I am hoping to do a full fighter playthrough but there is a problem with the 8 tumbler locks. Because of this, I am allowing myself 1 level of rogue. This level will have to grind me real high to be able to pick those locks towards the end of the game, I suppose.

[mpnorman10]

Wow, this was pulled up from some observations 5 years ago.

Since that time I noticed that, rarely, attempting to open a lock with lots of tumblers can sometimes result in two increases, if one happens quickly.

The assembly look-up of the code since that time reveals that each lock has a certain number of steps toward increase that are possible when attempting that particular lock. Beyond that, after a few minutes, no more increases (or steps of progress towards an increase) happen from attempting to open the (tumbler) lock. For at least some 8 tumbler locks the number of steps is > 8 which means two increases can happen while attempting to open the same lock if the player was close to a skill increase when beginning the attempt to open it.

For those unfamiliar, it takes 8 steps toward an increase for an increase (of a skill) to happen. These steps are the result of formulas leading toward skill increases, but the steps toward an increase are not visible externally. The player only sees the increase when the number of steps reaches 8 and the visible skill increases (and the step count for that skill goes back to zero).

Those who wish to manipulate the game with artificial training have had more success given the current code by inspecting the lock over and over again. I would never do this and personally do not find boredom fun, but those who want to repetitively train the Locks and Traps skill report at least some success via repetitive inspection without necessarily opening the lock.

The original code back in 2001 actually did allow unlimited increases by continually attempting to open a tough lock. The designers intentionally plugged that to prevent training of the Locks and Traps skill repetitively (to keep players away from boredom), but they did not remove the use of multiple inspections for repetitive training purposes yet at the time Sir Tech Canada went under.

To clarify, this is a single player game and whatever players do that they find fun is fine. The problem with repetitive training is that when the discussion boards are full of discussions of the cheats and artificial repetition methods that work, new players can sometimes get the false impression that it is necessary to do that. It is not.

IMO, this game is the most fun when cheats and boring repetition are not used and challenges are created and faced within the boundaries including that. However, that is just me and many players enjoy challenges that require cheats or repetitive training to even make them possible. To each their own, whatever is fun, but please do not give new or returning players the false impression that such techniques (or any mods, etc.) are necessary.

This thread from five years ago does involve spending up to a few minutes on locks that do not open, often resulting in one or, rarely, two increases in the skill before moving on.

Also, since that time it has been clear that any character in the party who can learn the Locks and Traps skill can easily become the party's specialist, even if their Locks and Traps skill starts at zero prior to applying bonus skill points at character creation. The Locks and Traps skill only needs to be good enough. For example a Bard (starting at a skill of zero) can become the Locks and Traps expert in the party even if a Gadgeteer that starts with a Locks and Traps skill of 8 or 9, as a bonus prior to creation, is in the same party. For at least some parties there are reasons to consider that.

Who in the party handles Locks and Traps, if any, is just one factor in the overall party and character design for the party. It is a funny skill in the sense that it only needs to be good enough and so 5 bonus points at creation plus 3 per level-up for most of the game, along with skill-ups through the experience of opening everything, is sufficient to make opening stuff pretty easy and relatively safe throughout the game even if starting with zero skill prior to character creation.

That easy, good enough, evaluation does depend upon the party having some magic (like for Divine Trap to assist with some traps and Knock Knock for a door beyond the present skill of the party that must be opened, like in a retro dungeon). Without that magical assistance there will be more traps that are tripped. With limited skill and no magic some locks, including necessary ones, become impossible. For the physical-only party only there are items that can be found or purchased to do Knock Knock when rarely needed.

For most party designs, the skill is not one to optimize. It only needs to be good enough and becomes easy and effortless to manage.

[Abscondrel]

as i learned from previous posters of wisdom here, lock skill increase is only but so important and there are plenty of locks to give us what we need. which is a party that can blow through 8s.

[Woofy]

I think picking locks is the most boring point in this game. I really love the game, except for the lock picking. I just wish there was an auto button for it.

[schudson1]

Originally posted by brantnuttall:

I am hoping to do a full fighter playthrough but there is a problem with the 8 tumbler locks. Because of this, I am allowing myself 1 level of rogue. This level will have to grind me real high to be able to pick those locks towards the end of the game, I suppose.

115+ Strength will get your fighters through.