Magic Damage Party

[mpnorman10]

The guide I am creating for the Magic Damage Party (MDP) is still a work in progress. But since it has come up in several recent threads I feel it is only fair to make my progress so far available. There are a lot of usage and style points I need to still get down and there are sections I intend to greatly reduce, change or eliminate.

The main reason for publishing at this work-in-progress stage is for the specific instructions. Just taking the same characters as in the suggested MDP does not make it an MDP. The emphasis needs to be placed upon magic damage and specialist casters need to be given exactly one fighting skill before the party works as well as claimed. The party concept is well wrung out - it is only the guide which is a work in progress.

I am not asking the players on this board for anything at this point. I am still working on it and simply do not want to hide that work in case other players want to know what is being talked about. In particular the guide is a work in progress is not ready for critical review, but the MDP party is playable and open for criticism, other player experiences, etc., even though the guide talking about the MDP is an incomplete guide at this point.

There is no "secret sauce" in Wizardry 8. Any claims about what works and does not are subject to verification by other players independently. It is in that spirit that I unhide the work on the guide so far. I am not asking other players for review of it yet, but any responses or reactions are always welcome, positive, negative or anywhere in-between.

[BiomageHun]

plz dont choice faerie :)

[mpnorman10]

Actually a Faerie Mage works quite well for this type of party. Speed and Senses max quicker and after that Dexterity + Strength improve the character a lot with every level.

[biogoo]

In a full magic party, mana regen doesnt matter much, as you have more than enough portals to keep one at the Trynton fountain. So you might as well go fairy.

[mpnorman10]

Yes, and also there is no reason not to sleep up between battles if there is an appropriate place for it. Even if interrupted, Shadow Hound protects from being surprised.

In my current party the Hobbit Mage that has had Power Cast open for quite a few levels now is scheduled to max both Speed and Senses at level 17. If instead I had chosen a Faerie Mage, Speed would max at level 15 and Senses at level 16 (or visa versa).

On the other hand the Hobbit Mage starts with Strength of 40 instead of a Strength of 25 with reduced carrying capacity. It is a trade off and both races work well for a Mage of this sort, IMO. Even without the fountain there are, I fully agree, plenty of Mana points in each of the realms, even though races with low Piety were chosen and zero points were put into the Piety attribute.

[BiomageHun]

how you kill the last boss? :D
will be slow, with melee damage

[CeterumCenseo]

DS can be killed easily with thrown weapons (at high skill) + armormelt. It will take a while, but is safe. Henchmen don't matter.

I am curious to read it.

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by BiomageHun:

how you kill the last boss? :D
will be slow, with melee damage

I honestly do not remember the details and my current party is not there, yet, but it was never a difficult battle or in doubt. It may have been a combo of melee for DS, plus AOE magic damage to help Bela with the rest.

The Bard with Power Strike, maxed Dexterity, high Senses and eleven Bloodlust swings per round of combat does not take long in melee with anything in the game if not disabled. If turncoated (like with Souleater rearing) he or she becomes very, very dangerous for characters in the party.

[CeterumCenseo]

Some first remarks from my side. I do not mention all the redundancies in the guide atm, because you mentioned it was work in process, so this will be probably gone in the final version. So I refer only to the content.

MDP is understood, but misleading in my opinion, as melee also starts with an "M".

For the gadgeteer it is not mentioned why the Omnigun is not used (or a 3xb, if this is wanted).

For the bard, the uncurse spell could allow her to use ranged weapons as well. It is perfectly fine, if you do deliberately not pursue that road, but should be mentioned imv.

imo it is important who gets the initial spellbooks (light, stamina, bless, divine trap, cure lesser condition) found on the way. Especially light is immensely powerful to raise fire, if no other spell is available. So less for the mage, more for the alchemist or even cleric. Stamina is important for the bard not to run out. There is always a conflict if the precious mana should be used for damage or healing. Your strategy would be interesting.

Another principal discussion is what spells to take and what to wait for eg at Braffit and Anna. Will you visit Kunar or Sadok first and why? Or both in parallel and hope for dual agent status not being discovered? How to take Crocks "L12" limit into account, ie he most often doesn't sell L4 spells before that. How and in what sequence are the instruments and gadgets picked? When is the best time to tackle the midgame L5 spellbooks and the higher instruments and gadgets?

Some remarks on the spells, please feel free to disagree with me, you have more experience from your history

Razor cloak is imo worthless in connection with a wide frontline, especially at L3, where it can be cast at PL1 maximum and lasts one round. It has some use to push Earth as preparation for Whipping Rocks, this could be mentioned, if this is the motivation.

In my latest magic damage party with hybrids, I have taken Shrill Sound on the mage instead of missile shield. At this moment I think it is more useful, but I did not meet any shooting plants yet.

In a discussion thread you mentioned Sonic Boom was incredibly useful, but not here yet.

You did not mention Ring of Fire for the Alchemist. I am a big fan of this spell, I always take it before the Fire Bomb of the Alchemist, but this is probably preference.

On the psionic I miss the hypnotic lure, which has, on top of damage reduction by distraction, also a crowd control feature, maybe could be mentioned, why you took Chameleon instead. What does that spell add to the party?

Personally I found Elemental and Soul Shield not worth taking immediately, because casting it in the green at PL2 doesn't change any incoming damage, or did you have other experience? Any tests made of the same situation with or without low level combat shields?

Artifacts is not mentioned as well. I do not think it is needed, because this party should have enough sources of magic damage and not need another one, but if the Amulet of Healing or the (mentioned) Canned Elemental play a role in the strategy for this party, one char should have a high Artifacts skill.

You made some suggestions for alternative setups with Fighters and Rangers were also mentioned, but you did not include a second mage or other caster in a potential roster. Did you think about this?

Last point for now: Can you give some recommendations what to use in what situation? About the role of the non damaging spells like Blinding Flash, Insanity, Paralyze vs which type of enemy? Or is it all the same: Get out as much AoE as you can? How did you tackle enemies like the bank golem?

Overall, this idea of the MDP is very intriguing, and I will certainly play a similar party soon, it seems to be very enjoyable. I have to say I wouldn't believe this party is so strong, if this information didn't come from a source as credible as you are for me.

I hope this is not misunderstood as attempt to turn down your effort and demotivate you to continue with writing. I have deep respect and I know myself how long it takes to compile this together, and this is all time not available for playing.

[mpnorman10]

Thank you, CC, for diligent reading. It will help me finish the guide. Yes, there is conflicts in use of time between working on the guide, playing my current MDP game and everything else in life.

Yes, I can see that more explanation on spells is needed.

To make a long story short it is magic damage that matters to this party. Potentially very powerful spells like Hypnotic Lure and Insanity are intentionally left on the table while some other, relatively useless for this party spells (like Razor Cloak and Blinding Flash, which are merely to get those realms started) are picked up.

Sometimes, like for taking Psionic Fire over Hypnotic Lure and Fire Bomb over Ring of Fire is because offensive damaging magic is the way this party deals with the Wizardry 8 universe. Psionic Fire is used a lot.

On the other hand Blinding Flash is rarely if ever cast, but can be cast in an emergency if things get out of control (did not happen this game). It gets the Fire Realm started, just like Razor Cloak is harmless, unimportant, rarely cast but gets the earth realm going.

The Paralyze spell for the Priest is a damage reducer and gets the important water realm going. All of the early found spells via spell book are given to the Priest except I give Divine Trap to the Psionic.

Scattering effects are unwanted. The Omnigun is dumped in favor of a bow because it blinds foes and generally that is bad. The idea is to gather enemies together and use cone and area spells to kill them. Disabling spells do not assist with that and are not used for that reason. Disabling spells when used are incoming damage reducers and the benefits are usually very temporary, because it only takes a couple rounds to kill all of the enemies whether there are five or thirty of them.

It would be nice, for this kind of party if there were nice damage spells in every realm for every caster, but there is not. Acid Bomb for the Alchemist is slow acting and generally only cast once against foes before they die, but the water realm is important later so it is taken along and used.

One point about conflict spells in a realm is that there is no conflict. For example, when Ring of Fire is eventually purchased from Kumar it is used in some situations when enemies are going to be in contact with the party, but sometimes, like with level 9 rats they are killed on approach and rarely even reach the party.

I mention booms, but then only get some spells by purchasing them.

I have gone different routes in different games, but after several games my preferred route has become at level 8 and after thorougly doing Arnika except possibly the spaceport I scurry to Trynton, but only as far as Fuzzfas and then through the Swamp across the bridge and to the Mine Tunnels. Arnika I use as a home base covering the region of Arnika-Trynton road between Arnika and that house connected to the 4-way teleportal many times. Thus I see Sadok early and, after a trip from the 4-way to Arnika and back visit the Umpani and Kumar.

The Alchemist and Alchemy are used to generate money, for all of the spell books and I will include repeat characters in an MDP which I have seen (thanks for reminder).

Some aspects, such as my route, playing double agent with both the Umpani and T-Rang and other aspects are not related to MDPs specifically, but work well with it.

Some humbling aspects such as paying off He'li and not killing Crock after what he does are important for those choices and for MDPs. Crock is the source for most of the Amulets of Healing and Mana Stones.

Other aspects are just choices that I change and am experimenting with. For example a 3x crossbow in the hands of Vi with Hunter Quarrels. Do I stick with that or give her a Siege Arabest? I choose Wrist Rockets and use Spike Stones most of the way. A lot of stones get wasted on distant targets.

It would be nice if each character could be set to fire their ranged weapons or not when enemies are at long range. Eventually, through trial and error, I prefer Wrist Rockets over Double Shot slings, especially as I eventually shift away from stock Spike Stones to more expensive Impaling Stones and eventually Medusa Stones. The stones are mostly a waste of ammo until late in the game so I stick with Spike Stones for a long time.

There are a lot of things to answer, some of them key for the MDP and some of them incidental choices I prefer that are not an integral part of parties like that but are reasonable, optional choices within Wizardry 8.

Please be patient with me as I try to organize and write well and efficiently and eliminate, reduce or re-purpose earlier chapters that are mostly going to go away. Thank you for your diligence.

My goals include to make this kind of party a viable choice for players who want to try something different in Wizardry 8, and to dispel any common misgivings about this kind of party becoming weak when they are more strong relative to enemies toward the end of the game than at any earlier point. The purpose is ultimately fun for players who I hope find this kind of power and excitement as enjoyable as I do.

[Zadok]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

Razor cloak is imo worthless in connection with a wide frontline

It is generally a terrible spell, BUT I used it on my Faerie Ninja ages ago to beat the Don at level 10. While it wasn't the only and probably not even the most efficient strategy it was real fun!
Thing is: One can cast it on enemies. A friendly NPC can be killed even in a fight against weak opponents if you cast RC and GA on them ^^

[CeterumCenseo]

Probably the easiest way to hit the Don at all, given his extreme dodge. I used that tactic as well on my solo Alchemist. Launch all the passives and keep them up. But takes some time.

[Skleedle]

my favorite way to kill the Don is to get ahead of Calzone in the hallway so you can get behind the Don to start combat and hit with anything that KO's. KO'd and from behind he's gone right away. Of course, then you have to be able kill Calzone

[Zergs]

Very interesting post, MP. I like your idea of developing the specialist casters as hybrids, actually--letting their magic rise on its own, and spending level up points on physical attacks.

Out of the four specialists, which do you think has the best potential to be a physical damage dealer? Using top-end weapons like the Mauler or the Staff of Doom? I imagine this would depend on which race/class combo has the most extra points to devote to strength/dexterity after maxing intelligence, or alchemist, which wants to raise dexterity anyway.

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by Zergs:

Very interesting post, MP. I like your idea of developing the specialist casters as hybrids, actually--letting their magic rise on its own, and spending level up points on physical attacks.

Out of the four specialists, which do you think has the best potential to be a physical damage dealer? Using top-end weapons like the Mauler or the Staff of Doom? I imagine this would depend on which race/class combo has the most extra points to devote to strength/dexterity after maxing intelligence, or alchemist, which wants to raise dexterity anyway.

At level 15, the Alchemist with Staff of Doom gets two or four swings per round of combat. Power Strike in the teens has yet to rise to significant levels for the effects, but the damage contributes nicely to the overall total per round of combat. The Priest does not yet have a Mauler but just obtained Diamond Eyes. What he had before (Enchanted Mace) gives decent performance in situations when physical fighting is utilized, but with not as many swings on average per round of combat as compared to the Alchemist with the Ebon Staff recently upgraded to the Staff of Doom.

I made a mistake (mental error by the player, not to criticize the characters) with the Death Lord in the Mountain Wilderness, who cast a Death Cloud that I had negligently not prepared for. It was cast even though I engaged him at melee distance with surprise and got a hit by someone (do not remember who) in addition to some protections during the surprise round. But I had not prepared for the Death Cloud cast, even though I should have known from experience that it might be coming, and at the end of the round of combat during which it was cast two died (RFS-81 and Gadgeteer). I intended to have my (intentionally relatively slow) Alchemist clear the air at the end of the next round but somehow, playing tired I guess, managed to forget and I had him cast "Heal All" via an Amulet of healing instead after the two resurrections (resulting in both being resurrected and healthy by the end of the round (and Stamina restored by the also somewhat relatively slow Priest). Of course, having forgotten to purify the air, the cloud was still there (even though the Death Knight was not) and the newly resurrected and healed Gadgeteer died again (fighting just two Vampire heads at that point). I did not forget again, used a different character for "Heal All" after the third resurrection and had the Alchemist cast a PL4 Purify Air spell to clear the cloud after which dusting off the heads was no problem.

That was a player error rather than character flaw. In situations when Death Cloud or another devastating cloud even might be cast it pays (in my magic damage full party) to have the relatively slow Alchemist programmed to cast Purify Air even before any cloud is cast during that round of combat so the Purify Air cleans up at the very end of that round. Even if it turns out to be unnecessary, the impact of one non-damaging round by the Alchemist is a trivial cost to pay for the cloud protection, just in case.

That is five character deaths (those three and two earlier) experienced and resurrected during battle so far this run (expert difficulty but not in ironman mode, even though there have been no reloads, at least not yet).

[CeterumCenseo]

I normally take the risk of having a cloud active cast right on. I purify in the next round.

I think death cloud works against air resistance, so elemental shield and magic screen combined should provide protection, and for level difference there is not really a remedy. There is also a ring (of breezes) with both air resistance and purify spell, which has not even a fizzle check vs artifacts, but not 100% sure about this, for situations with death clouds. Risk of wipe in a party of 6 is close to zero, the worst thing that can happen would be different XPs within the party. A