True solo Ironman (w/o RPCs) - a viable challenge?

[Zadok]

With saves I've solo'd the game with fighter, faerie ninja, bishop and finally a mage without RPCs.
With the weaker classes it already gets significantly more difficult of course, not only in the early game (sooo squishy those mages...). Still: Even the mage true solo is a lot easier than any ironman true solo. Now I haven't tried too much, but the monastery is already really hard - as expected.

While I get far ahead of myself here, not having been remotely close to a point where it matters, I kind of don't want to even start to play an extreme challenge if it ends up being a lottery.
While the ironman true solo is very difficult anyway it's the INSTA-DEATH risk I'd like to tackle in theory before even attempting in earnest. Afaik there is no way to reduce the death risk to 0 if hit by death cloud or death wish. Add up Marten's tomb and Ascension Peak and those small % chances to have your game end immediately are not that small after all...

Of course the best spell in the game (Guardian Angel) can tackle all on-hit effects nicely, but not the magical stuff. Also GA potions are expensive and a world apart from having the spell, so that suggests a divinity caster (probably a good idea anyway). The Death Lord guarding Marten's tomb can be tempted to (hopefully) never cast his death spells by charging it in melee I guess. Some instant death encounters can be dodged by entering the areas at the right level for them not to show up (which is rather bothersome...). Not sure what's the ideal level for Ascension Peak. In fact I've yet to check whether any level allows not to encounter death spell monsters on the peak.
That's already a lot to mind, but even if that all worked out those life temple tree guards on Ascension Peak will always be there and insist on keeping death cloud up. That is to say: If you'd manage to tackle the immense difficulties up to that point you'd still face a not so small chance to die randomly right before the end.

While I like the idea, my planning suggests that the true solo ironman run isn't quite viable a challenge, given the need to get lucky on various occasions. Also this specific worry is just the tip of the iceberg...

Any ideas?

[mpnorman10]

Zadok, I recommend that you try it without Ironman but using the Ironman restrictions. There is nothing to prove, no reward if you make it with Ironman mode and if random chance or a dangerous situation that goes badly kills, you can still proceed (from your last save) and answer for yourself if it is possible. Was there another, safer way to approach the battle or kind of battle that killed you? With that methodology you can investigate without starting over eleven times.

If you make it all the way without any reloads other than when starting again without stopping, I for one will believe you (and be among those who congratulate you) if that is what you experience and report. There is nothing to be gained from lying.

[Zadok]

Perhaps the formula for these spells' kill chance is known by now? If so that would certianly help.

[Zadok]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Zadok, I recommend that you try it without Ironman but using the Ironman restrictions.
(...)
I for one will believe you (and be among those who congratulate you) if that is what you experience and report. There is nothing to be gained from lying.

I think I'll just try and beat early game for now. If 11 restarts are already enough to stop me I really don't have any business worrying about instant death anyway. El Dorado alone required more reloads than that to beat with my mage ^^

townltu once said he'd have played a number of ironman solos iirc. I wonder whether he used RPCs. Wouldn't put it past him to have done w/o them, but if so he must still have a few trade secrets I reckon...

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by Zadok:

Perhaps the formula for these spells' kill chance is known by now? If so that would certianly help.

I do not recall if Silicoid investigated that one when disassembling the W8 source code in 2001. Pedroelm's guide here would be a good reference to check.

If you are concerned about Instant Death, natural (like an Apus) or by spell then if your character can cast Soul Shield and Magic Screen that can help. That may or may not be viable. CeterumCenseo here on this board has several solo guides that will give you an idea what did and did not work for him.

[Zadok]

An Apus can be blocked with GA. That's the main reason why it is the best spell (in a solo anyway): blocking on-hit effects.
Of course Magic Screen should always be active, but I'd expect the level difference to be no less decisive, perhaps even more decisive than resistance values.

*peddroelm's guide is indeed helpful: If I understand it correctly the likelyhood of attack effects applying can't be lowered below 5%. Not with resistances or level difference anyway (ofc GA is above such puny restrictions, as is not getting hit). While spells are something else I wouldn't be surprised if those 5% are the same for attack effects and spells. Moreover it "feels right", matching my experience as far as I can tell.

[biogoo]

As for the formula, I believe that every spell has a specific fixed % chance of success per power level (+ bonus from powercast). If successfully rolled, then it is rolled once more against the target resistance, where the 5% minimum (as well as 95% maximum) comes in.

PS: You do not have to actually fight any enemy with insta death spell.

[Zadok]

Originally posted by biogoo:

(...) You do not have to actually fight any enemy with insta death spell.

Well I can dodge the tomb, but how do I dodge the life temple guards?

*I've tried to hide and do a manual combat dodge back when I actually played a lot, but it didn't quite work out - always got into actual combat. Can I simply do that better..? Perhaps lure them in a tad before starting manual combat or something?

[biogoo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMaKxTtvo9E&list=PLREOogCzzCuNH9duYGWkzQEQ2S_3ib9qx&index=2&t=0s

[Zadok]

I see - thanks!
Just watched your 1:10:23 run. You found a number of glitches I didn't know about it would appear, most notably that RPC drop combat glitch. Nice one!

[CeterumCenseo]

Zadok, I have read about your Pandora run on reddit. This was an extreme challenge, which is above what I have been doing so far on lolos. I agree with you that Ironman is much much higher as challenge. In my Solos so far, some challenges appear which make the endeavor tricky:

1. In the first levels, any encounter can be deadly. The 3 initial crabs, the 3 initial slimes, any roach or rat you come across, everything. Possible countermeasure: Biogoo has shown in his speedruns how to avoid any fight, before Arnika is reached. And if things go wrong and you get a bad roll, you can start from fresh and only lose a few minutes.

2. Later in the game, not melee is the main obstacle, not magic, but Paralyze and Web. If you cannot move, you are 99.9% dead. Stealth is helpless vs "breath" attacks like sleep from Crimson poppies and webs from spiders.. Countermeasure is to avoid any encounter with a potentially movement disabling monster.

3. Another issue are high damage dealers: some higher level sprites, geomancers, elemental traps. Countermeasure: Leave trapped chests, run from those enemies.

4. You cannot run away from flyers (and swallowers), they are faster than your char. Some flyers can paralyze. See number 2. Countermeasure is maybe Chameleon, in order not to be spotted and withdraw before drawing aggro.

5. Death spells, not only instant death, death cloud and death wish, but also Asphyxiation and Quicksand. Most reliable countermeasure is to be above their level, and of course to minimize number of encounters where this could happen. This means the fixed encounters can be planned.

One remark on Guardian Angel, which you mentioned. It is true that it prevents any status effects connected to damage like these pesky apuses. The issue with GA is it cannot be refreshed before it runs out completely, any recast won't reset the damage GA prevents.

Generally, solo games becomes ridiculously easy from L15-L20 onwards with most chars, but to get there is the challenge, and even an invincible char can be Koed or instakilled.

Having said all this means I do not say it is impossible. In this game, a lot is possible, if the game is understood well enough. I already had to change a lot of perceptions I had about this game, eg about the necessity of grinding, the possibility to run a party with no magic (not a solo, this is easy).

IIRC, biogoo once played a game without killing anyone or nearly anyone. This could provide you with lots of information how to avoid the risks. The less risks, the higher the probability to succeed. Personally, I never use the shortcuts biogoo sometimes takes in his videos, in my own games, but using them would improve your chances considerably. At this moment, I do not think atm that Solo ironman is "viable", which I would define as "repeatable with a good chance of success". To me, it is rolling a set of dice to get all sixes. Sometimes you will succeed. But with good strategy and tactics, you might be able to reduce the number of dices to a few only or even less.

I think class changing would be allowed in this setup, to give you abilities temporarily which help in the game. Alchemist (DoTs and BoS), lord (life regeneration), bard (music in early game), rogue (stealth, l&t) all have abilities helping in some phases of the game.

Another help is creating new characters in a certain sequence to get some starting gear, also shown in biogoo's videos.

Not taking any RPCs on board prevents some good experience, both Glumph and Rodan/Drazic.

You need to find a way how to tackle the DD without the Serenity helm. The trick to "disarm" the bomb without going to the tower also works for getting the Idol without being kidnapped, which I found out by chance. There are ways to bring the DD to AP without the Serenity helm, which I successfully used, and biogoo's Fairie Fighter went all the way from Sea Caves to AP insane, so that seems to work as well. Since you said you already played solo without RPCs, you know best how it works.

Don't forget to train for the obstacle course to avoid the blades.

For some death spells it seems they are cast less often when the char is in close range, then the caster will make use of all spells he has. Deathwish is more often used, if LoS is broken. Staying in the open gives more Lightning from them aso. Check monster information on Flamestryke's site. But I doubt that there is a level gap which excludes death spells from random encounters. Set djinns on Chaos and the Sprites on Life branches have them anyway.

Townltu was recently active on postcount.net, maybe you can ask him directly there.


I wish you all the best luck for this endeavor. Let us know here or somewhere else, how you find it.

[Skleedle]

I played through a solo Valk on expert but not Iron. One Rogue level after 5 as Valk (made sure i had enough XP to go back to Valk before having to fight again). IIRC it was late 2002, still on the patch that allowed Pickpocket to be useful. Cheated death a few times but never died completely. By then i had worked out killing the Djinn set and Sprite set without getting death magic cast at me. The biggest advantage i got from PP was the Don, but i had to reload a lot to grind it on everybody else to be good enough. I think a Valk/Rogue could do it without PP if you grind enough Stealth; it's a little harder but you can arrange to buy what you can't steal. I often portal myself from Marten to the Temple to avoid the whole Serenity rigamarole, i'm sure it's what i did with the Valk.

[CeterumCenseo]

One issue is about melee on expert. My best parties miss their melee swings 5 out of 6 times in the early game, while the enemies hit seemingly always. This can be avoided by starting with offensive magic or starting with stealth building on the beach.

One possibility to resolve this would be to start with 1 level as a mage, take 2 offensive spells, and at L2, switch to something that gives stealth and has HPs, preferably a Ninja. Or skip the mage level and start as ninja. Then build stealth playing with the crabs, biggest challenge would be the decision, when to run away, because that grind takes awfully long. After a few weeks, stealth would be at 100, still at L2, you should be safe from most melee foes, and you can train a weapon on L5 or something in the monastery, until you maxed out your weapon of choice. L&T grinds are not possible in Ironman.

Somebody recommended once to use an Elven Bow from Wizardry 7 for regeneration, which makes the Stealth grind much easier. And you only have to play W7 once.

Then the suggestion would be to go as a bishop and bring all buffs, plus E41E, optionally BoS to PL7 cast in the green. Do this in an area without disabling foes. The key is to always stay above the map level, because magic effectivity is driven by level difference a lot. This can be done in Arnika until L12, with the Police as meatshields, then switch to Arnika Road. Grind schools and realms to what is needed to reach that goal. Offensive magic is not needed at all. When this is complete, you can switch to a fighter, get all the high AC, high resistance gear from Ferro, and maul-berserk your enemies.

It takes long, but is the safest route I can imagine atm. The only downside is that you probably grind for 100s of hrs, and bad luck at one time will finish that char for good.

[Zadok]

I've considered Fighter into Ninja into Bishop into Fighter. Could add a Psionic level or simply set up a Portal beforehand for the DD. Drawback: That build takes a bunch of grinding. Now I wouldn't usually play multiclass at all, but this is hard and I believe that the strongest character if played in the right class order. That said I haven't even managed Monastery so far and the necessity for grinding is really annoying if you have to do it over and over for a bunch of attempts.

A pure Lord would be simpler and he ought to do the trick w/o any grinding. A single Rogue level would probably pay; stealth grinds itself if you give it a few hours and some minor locks & traps goes a long way. Lords are a bit short on money early on, but besides that they ought to easily be one of the most powerful solos. Does anyone know how much Perception is required for Diamond Eyes to be found? It isn't required, but it should be an option if the *light* set isn't dropped.

Although I know perfectly well how to combat-dodge monsters and reached Arnika as a pacifist often enough it is a whole lot harder w/o saves. One minor mistake and you find you can't pass a narrow gap between wall & monster after all - that's it then. Of course I don't plan on killing the King Crab or Gregor, but it seems easier overall to fight out some of the smaller skirmishes. Also the initial crabs are relatively easy and give you a very useful level 2 for (up to) +50% HP.

[CeterumCenseo]

I think the Fighter -> Ninja -> Bishop should work. Fighter gives a few additional HPs, Ninja grinding stealth is surprisingly effective at least until ~70, and the crab hits seldom, because Ninja is higher level. I expect most of the time, it will become unconscious before Ninja needs to withdraw. Ninja runs faster than crab, and after sleep, it becomes yellow again, and the stealth game starts anew.

With high Stealth, Gregor should be no issue at all, he can be avoided completely or be killed with missiles or extended with the pillar trick. I do not even mention the crab.

Ranged opponents, like the small spiders or seekers, are more difficult, because for a strange reason, I found stealth much less effective vs ranged than in melee.

Changing to bishop is a bit of an issue to get all the attributes for his profile, especially the PIE.

As bishop and with high stealth you are pretty safe. But you don't do a lot of damage. I found for some solos, spike stones do better damage than melee. Alternately, you could train MA as a Ninja until 80 (a very bad grind), this is sufficient until you get Ebon Staff.

Comparing my own bishop and fighter solos, I found the bishop more stable, the fighter (almost no magic) required much more reloads than the bishop, I have no experience with multiclass Fighter - Bishops.

I have written in my Solo Guide that VIT is the most important attribute, VIT 100 vs. VIT 50 gives 40% more HPs according to peddroelm's formula. It means your melee is weaker, but longer battles are no issue for this challenge, only survival.

As suggested by mpnorman above, I'd start with a normal game played with Ironman rules, and once play completely through, make notes, what the worst challenges were and then do the real run.

The Lord is strong, I found his regen helps a lot in the early game. He can protect himself very well, but he has offensive issues due to the fact offensive magic is available only relatively late and limited. If you cannot afford to die once, I think Stealth is the ticket.

[biogoo]

Ninja comes with a 4 caster level penalty to alchemy. Better get a rogue level if it is only about stealth.