Dagger ninja

[dannyaic]

For a dagger/throwing ninja, what do you think is better, doublestrikes, or sai? My gut instinct would be doublestrikes but I wonder how strong resistance would come into play with them. Thoughts?

[vysionier]

Double strike does 2-8 damage at 100 str. Add extra from extra attack and you get 4-16. Sai does 6-22 at 100 str with one attack. A fae ninja with sprites dagger gets stamina regen plus at 100 str 6-28 dmg.

[dannyaic]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Double strike does 2-8 damage at 100 str. Add extra from extra attack and you get 4-16. Sai does 6-22 at 100 str with one attack. A fae ninja with sprites dagger gets stamina regen plus at 100 str 6-28 dmg.

Well,, I mean more for critical strike purposes. The damage is pretty meaningless by the time you get those weapons. A ninja with sai has a 17.5% chance to CRIT each strike, while a ninja with doublestrikes has a 12.5 (Effectively 25%) chance to)

[vysionier]

Except critical strike sucks and rarely triggers. You’d be better off with consistent damage with occasional chance of knock out like with m/a or nunchucks. But to each his own, I’m sure some of the others here have a differing viewpoint.

[dannyaic]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Except critical strike sucks and rarely triggers. You’d be better off with consistent damage with occasional chance of knock out like with m/a or nunchucks. But to each his own, I’m sure some of the others here have a differing viewpoint.

K. Not what I asked, thanks. I've played through this game a few times already. Wanted to try something different.

[vysionier]

Ok, to answer your question, you’ll have more chances to trigger instant death if you have more attacks. So doublestrike. But I’d recommend sai in main hand and doublestrike in off hand to not give away all your damage dealing abilities.

[CeterumCenseo]

I would agree that on the long term, the daggers will proc more instakills than sai. Because of the higher weapon INI, double strike will strike even 3x in some attribute/skill configurations while Sai remains at 1. Look for the details in peddroelm's guide. The relative kill chance difference is temporarily even higher. So if you go for melee instakill, double strike is better due to the additional attack imv.

I think the original question is rather related to game mechanics than to effectivity. Due to the extreme low chance of instakill, the effect in the game is close to zero. I once did a game with double Sai on a Ninja in a party of 3 (Ranger, Ninja, Gadgeteer). It was terrible, really frustrating. I do not expect it would have been different with double doublestrike daggers.

From my own experience with daggers, only fairies' and thieves' are worthwhile to consider, if damage and kill capacity in melee are the objective.

[vysionier]

Hey cc, do you remember what enemy resistance instakill is applied to? I thought I remember hearing all weapon based effects go against earth resist and level applies in there somehow too.

[CeterumCenseo]

according to peddroelm/silicoid there is a separate chance to instakill against a save. Highest modification is level difference between causer of instakill (independent of melee, ranged or magic) and target. This is why lower level monsters can be taken out with one kill spell easy. According to that guide, chance is vs divine resistance.


For details, look here, chapter 5.2.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=899973393

[vysionier]

Thanks! I had only partially remembered that :/ old age catching up I guess.

[dannyaic]

Originally posted by vysionier:

Ok, to answer your question, you’ll have more chances to trigger instant death if you have more attacks. So doublestrike. But I’d recommend sai in main hand and doublestrike in off hand to not give away all your damage dealing abilities.

That's a fair point. I dunno, I've just never seen the ninja as being good at dealing straight damage, I always saw him as a crit specialist. If I want straight up pure damage I go rogue or fighter. Ninja's can do ranged and close crits, unlike the ranger who can only do ranged. Hybrids in general though, are dissapointing compared to how they were in wizardry 7. I still love Valkyries in this game, but for killing potential, nothing beats a fighter or a rogue.

Lords are only really good with one specific build and that's as a Double Maces/Backup Priest. To be fair, it's a very good build though.

Samurai Have almost no really good off hand weapons, so it's almost a waste to have them dual wield when they could be developing other abilities. And then they don't have the benefit of Berserk, or Backstab. Fang is nice, but not sure how often it'll lightning strike.

Rangers only excel at ranged combat which is not always very useful.

Ninja are only good at throwing, and ********, and unfortunately, it's very impractical to use both of those abilities on the same ninja due to the nature o the *******. and also throwing weapons are so limited.

The more i thought about it, the more i realized there's no point to the daggers. My idea, was just that dual wield would go up quickly due to dual wielding all the time, and no need for strength with daggers. But I think this next run I'm gonna use a MA ninja with just single arm throwing. It'll save on the thrown weapons which are so scarce to begin with and allow him to "Dual wield" while he's in melee.

[CeterumCenseo]

Danny, you have been playing this game much longer me, and your class guide on Gamespot is still around. You know best the strengths and weaknesses of each class

I believe you want to find other ways than just pure damage, where fighters and rogues excel thanks to the multiplication factors of berserk/backstab. There are fun many ways to play that game without triple digit numbers popping up over the heads of enemies. Unfortunately, crit chance is a nice bonus, but too unreliable to build a strategy upon.

Best set, noncursed weapon for a ninja imv is the Dread Spear, according to my own experiments. Thrown ammunition is enough in the game, if only the ninja uses it and stock of vendors is depleted at each visit. Autopenetrate and poison darts synergize excellently, as poison lowers AC.

Sam can use bloodlust and ench waki, both count as swords, the signature skill of the sam. Bloodlust is unbelievably strong on sams, rogues, bards and lords.

Fang gives a STR bonus, increasing damage and CtH + instakill as a bonus. LS imv isn't needed to make it effective.

MA doesn't count as DW, btw. The DW skill doesn't build with MA.

[vysionier]

Something to consider, and it’s definitely not for everyone, is the samurai sword/wand dual build, with the zatoichi bo in the secondary slot. And magic as the ranged attack. You’ll find some decent wands that have cool effects and high initiative so it’ll land it’s effects before your main hand hits. Then you’ll also get some versatility with the bo there, and the mage spellbook is awesome for ranged damage and effects plus protections.

[Thedungeonlord!]

I ran with a dagger ninja as the tank in my "Magic User" party. It took me ages to find the Sai's so I must have been using at least one double strike for awhile (It's been a year or two, so I don't fully remember). I do remember being somewhat disappointed with the ninja pretty much the whole way though. Damage was minimal, and criticals rare. I probably didn't nail the whole build side of it though.

[dannyaic]

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

Danny, you have been playing this game much longer me, and your class guide on Gamespot is still around. You know best the strengths and weaknesses of each class

I believe you want to find other ways than just pure damage, where fighters and rogues excel thanks to the multiplication factors of berserk/backstab. There are fun many ways to play that game without triple digit numbers popping up over the heads of enemies. Unfortunately, crit chance is a nice bonus, but too unreliable to build a strategy upon.

Best set, noncursed weapon for a ninja imv is the Dread Spear, according to my own experiments. Thrown ammunition is enough in the game, if only the ninja uses it and stock of vendors is depleted at each visit. Autopenetrate and poison darts synergize excellently, as poison lowers AC.

Sam can use bloodlust and ench waki, both count as swords, the signature skill of the sam. Bloodlust is unbelievably strong on sams, rogues, bards and lords.

Fang gives a STR bonus, increasing damage and CtH + instakill as a bonus. LS imv isn't needed to make it effective.

MA doesn't count as DW, btw. The DW skill doesn't build with MA.

What I originally wanted o do on this nxt run, was try some different things i hadn't before. Have some thrown criticals cause I find those fun, will maximizing the mileage of the ninja. Love martial arts, originally was gonna throw RFS-1 in the mix, but decided on the ninja now, and Maaaaybe the android too ;-).

The dread spear?? Really....Maybe a polearms ninja is in order to try, never done it before. What makes you say dread spear over MA, or Maces? If I recall ninjas can use the mauler and the vampire chain. (Not diamond eyes unfortunately)

I forgot fang gives strength. That's definitely a bonus, but not TOO impressed with enchanted wakiaski. Bloodlust for midgame is nice though.

Oh that I know. That's why I said, I'd only be throwing one handed, so I could ignore the dual wield skill on him. I meant with the dagger build I'd be dual wielding all the time.

[CeterumCenseo]

I do not have calculations what the max damage of MA is. I once played a solo ma monk and in the late game, he fought endless in battles vs eg rapax. Solo Dread Ninja did not have any problems in that area. Secondly polearms are extended weapons, so battles vs extended enemies, like crabs, some rapax ("flamberge"), elementals can be fought without an approach move. in parties, they can reach further into the battlefield.

But a party of MA monk, ma ninja and ma RFS really sounds like fun. Certainly worth to try.

Maces are nice, but good are only those you mentioned, and they come late. Vamoure chain requires luck or grinding as well. Until then, you need to fight with things like Nunchakus, 3-12 damage DW, thanks, is similar to daggers. Spears you have spear -> awl pike (before you reach Arnika) -> spiked (Trynton) -> stun rod (Sadok) -> dread spear (Bela). with some luck, Mystic spears drop in Trynton as well.