For new players *spoiler* don't give the Mook

[WhispersOfTheWind]

both Umpani and the T'rang letters.

It says throughout multiple guides and user-comments online that this doesn't matter for the game and that you can 'just' give them both. This is incorrect.

It matters because it "bugged" my game where I continued playing but after an Umpani mission later in the game they turned on me and became hostile because I've had given Mook both letters in order of first giving the T'rang one and then the Umpani one. (haven't reversed this order but giving only the Umpani letter to Mook doesn't seem to affect T'rang rating later on; other way around: it does)

I had to reload a previous save-state to fix this because I wanted the diplomatic quest for both factions which got broken by giving Mook both letters. Also make sure tobribe He'Li in timebefore advancing to work for both factions.

My point: Don't believe everything you read, I guess.

[A'zerit]

I've always given both letters, T'rang first, with no trouble. But I usually complete the T'rang questline before going back for Mt. Gigas advanced training.

He'li may turn you in quickly before you can get to her, though usually not. Can she rat you out to the Umpani as well?

[WhispersOfTheWind]

Originally posted by A'zerit:

I've always given both letters, T'rang first, with no trouble. But I usually complete the T'rang questline before going back for Mt. Gigas advanced training.

After you get to rescue the hostages or lost soldiers, a quest of Umpani that comes later on, and when you finish it, Umpani might turn on you. Watchout for that otherwise you'll spend leveling up and playing just to find out that you can't continue the storyline because of the aforementioned issue.

Originally posted by A'zerit:

He'li may turn you in quickly before you can get to her, though usually not. Can she rat you out to the Umpani as well?

I thought so, yes. I don't think there's consequences though.

Personally I've had problems with the T'rang because of this where I had to, but didn't, load a previous save, so I'm playing the game with that issue of them not trusting me. I give Z'ant a quest item and can talk to him where otherwise he says something like that he doesn't trust traitors and attacks. Now, I'm not sure if I'll able to save the diplomatic quest because I couldn't get to He'li in time (leveled up many levels since then).

[Giblets]

never had that before.
Is it possible to complete the double agent stuff, and then go on to do the finial mission each one requested? know what i mean..

[WhispersOfTheWind]

yes it's possible, I think that's the point of that whole double agent stuff, but just make sure that you have the T'rang letter in your inventory at all times, after giving Mook the Umpani one.

That's the route I took and it worked for my double agent mission. Just don't take neither factions last mission but try to work-around this.

This is where I left my game off.
Playing Wizardry 7 atm and man is it awesome! ;)

[Giblets]

But once you've done the double agent can you then still compare there last request?

[WhispersOfTheWind]

Originally posted by Giblets:

But once you've done the double agent can you then still compare there last request?

To be honest, I don't know. Haven't got that far yet.

But I think the point of that particular objective would be so that you make peace with both sides, thus making those objectives optional or even obsolete if you do it right.

[Giblets]

Well i've finished the game many times doing it the correct way, but i wondered if afterwards to could still blow up the T'rang and gain another experience boost.. i'll have to try it if i ever do it again.

[WhispersOfTheWind]

Yeah I also wished there were sort of more objectives too, even though the game is pretty extensive already.

Monster hunts are pretty fun when you're strong enough though. You know, for xp.

[St. Haborym]

Yeah that's not actually a bug, they don't like when you play both sides of the field.

[CeterumCenseo]

Going back to the original question:

The T'Rang mission is only about entering the Mook building in Arnika to get access to the CM. Reporting back to Z'Ant is only showing the CM. He will advise you to keep it.

The Umpani mission is about getting a reply to get access to the general and the last mission.

I never had problems to do both quest lines as designed.

Since I have played the game many times, I typically do the Umpani quests first, and then take T'Rang in one go: Flag, Raven Rapax Head, CM, Code. ~1M XP + gold in 10 seconds.

This sequence assumes to take both letters. As I said, never had a problem.

In Ironman, I typically do not play Umpani missions at all due to the risk of dying in the Obstacle course mission. So I only play T'Rang in that case.

To avoid "double agent" status being detected, you have to pay He'Li. I never had a problem with the Umpani about that, only with the T'Rang. But my experience is not exhaustive related to the cover blown up.

Paying He'Li is not reliable. I had it once that Z'Ant turned hostile on me despite He'Li being paid according to the journal. I reloaded immediately, so I do not know what the next consequences would be. I'd expect all T'Rang become hostile.

In that game I made the observation that the Z'Ant hostility even occurs when the Alliance mission was successfully completed and the Black Ship destroyed. In that game, approaching Z'Ant after everything was completed, he still accused me to work for the Umpani and turned hostile on the next encounter.

I never did the extinction missions (destroy the Umpani landing ship or blow up the T'Rang ship) in any of my games, but given the event mentioned above I would expect the questlines are independent, and you would get the reward, after one side was "destroyed", from the other side, even with the alliance in place.

The Alliance mission itself is quite fragile, so I try to complete it asap, using portals and stuff, to avoid any encounters, because both Rodan and Drazic are very weak when I get them.

[WhispersOfTheWind]

Originally posted by Hobo St.:

Yeah that's not actually a bug, they don't like when you play both sides of the field.

Hmm, I guess not. Kind of makes sense.

Originally posted by CeterumCenseo:

Going back to the original question:

The T'Rang mission is only about entering the Mook building in Arnika to get access to the CM. Reporting back to Z'Ant is only showing the CM. He will advise you to keep it.

The Umpani mission is about getting a reply to get access to the general and the last mission.

I never had problems to do both quest lines as designed.

Since I have played the game many times, I typically do the Umpani quests first, and then take T'Rang in one go: Flag, Raven Rapax Head, CM, Code. ~1M XP + gold in 10 seconds.

This sequence assumes to take both letters. As I said, never had a problem.

In Ironman, I typically do not play Umpani missions at all due to the risk of dying in the Obstacle course mission. So I only play T'Rang in that case.

To avoid "double agent" status being detected, you have to pay He'Li. I never had a problem with the Umpani about that, only with the T'Rang. But my experience is not exhaustive related to the cover blown up.

Paying He'Li is not reliable. I had it once that Z'Ant turned hostile on me despite He'Li being paid according to the journal. I reloaded immediately, so I do not know what the next consequences would be. I'd expect all T'Rang become hostile.

In that game I made the observation that the Z'Ant hostility even occurs when the Alliance mission was successfully completed and the Black Ship destroyed. In that game, approaching Z'Ant after everything was completed, he still accused me to work for the Umpani and turned hostile on the next encounter.

I never did the extinction missions (destroy the Umpani landing ship or blow up the T'Rang ship) in any of my games, but given the event mentioned above I would expect the questlines are independent, and you would get the reward, after one side was "destroyed", from the other side, even with the alliance in place.

The Alliance mission itself is quite fragile, so I try to complete it asap, using portals and stuff, to avoid any encounters, because both Rodan and Drazic are very weak when I get them.

Yeah I understand but see those steps are extra necessary in the sense that if you played the game the first time, like I did at the time of my original post or remark you simply can't know what to do exactly like to go asap from A. to B. so I think I lingered and I lost due to the fact it took me too long to get to He'Li, too long to get to Z Ant and this way the game turned bad on me where I had to glitch Z'Ant as for T'Rang not to turn Hostile on me.

If I had known what to do I wouldn't had gotten myself in that mess in the first place but somehow it worked out, it's just that it seems like:

"they don't like when you play both sides of the field". Or at least it's not so easy as it seems and not without some sacrifice in my case.

[mpnorman10]

Clearly this, including all of CC's points, was by design.

Becoming a double agent within the Wizardry 8 universe is not without its risks. I have done it without problems many times and have also had allies turn into enemies. There are workarounds when that happens, but the player will typically not know about those unless they learn online. For a first time through, unless reloading and avoiding it, the player may need to fight all of the allies that are now enemies. That possibility was a designed possible outcome.

Should the W8 designers have designed it that way? That is your call to make, player, and I respect your decision. While I personally neither wish to protest nor promote this aspect of the design I am very interested in listening to what you have to say about it.

[WhispersOfTheWind]

As a player it coerces you into a choice, a decision that you have to make and ideally making amends with all the parties involved would be ideal but that's often not in a games design by default it seems at least not until the very end at times where, the outcome itself is peace opposite to unbalance that was before the player came into the world and sort of solved everything.

[mpnorman10]

Originally posted by HellsWind:

As a player it coerces you into a choice

I hear you. I remember playing Mass Effect 3 and being forced to decide which of two friendly races to genocide. I yelled, swore, paced up and down and abandoned the game in disgust. I certainly did not like the way playing it made me feel.

Eventually I figured out how to pursue the peace option, but at the point I was in the initial game I abandoned, it was already too late. It is on the designer, not the player when a role playing game only has roles available that the player does not wish to even pretend to be.

I am not making any apologies for Wizardry 8 making the consequences of pursuing peace within the game (between the Umpani and T'Rang) dangerous and sometimes disastrous, but I consider W8 to be a rather mild offender relative to many other games. At least you can work around the ugly stuff, if you wish, during reruns if you are lucky and/or know the workarounds..

Wizardry 8 is about parties, characters and styles of play for which a wide variety of viable and (IMO) fun approaches exist. I have never rated (in my own mind or when asked) the story part of W8 higher than a 4 (out of 10).

[WhispersOfTheWind]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Originally posted by HellsWind:

As a player it coerces you into a choice

At least you can work around the ugly stuff

Hear hear.

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

Originally posted by HellsWind:

As a player it coerces you into a choice

4 (out of 10).

I actually liked it to the point that it did something to me emotionally like it touched me in some way which is saying something trust me.

Overall a great experience that blends between Grid Based Dungeon Crawler RPG and a (modern) FPS CRPG in which the last case the game was like a 'prototype' of sorts in this regard. 'Initializer' if you will that propelled modern FPS and RPG games into existence in a sense.