Experiences with A Caster Party

[CeterumCenseo]

Contains spoilers.


Playing the game with a Caster party seemed to be an interesting project. With a Caster Party, I mean a party of 1 Alchemist, 1 Priest, 1 Mage and 1 Psionic. Nobody else. No fighter to protect the weak, or take care of melee damage, when magic doesn’t help, no bishop, bard or gadgeteer. No NPC joining the party and no multiclassing. Difficulty level was normal.

I thought this party would have to overcome two challenges: Melee damage and defense. From my Solo projects I knew that Staff of Doom, Mauler, Diamond Eyes all were end-game viable and casters can equip them.
Defense wise, Priest and Alchemist would be able to protect themselves with sufficient armor, the cotton wearers Mage and Psionic probably not. And mpnorman’s investigations leading to his recently published concept of the “all melee” party confirmed the principal viability of such a party.

Races: I played with 4 Rawulfs, for the role playing aspect only. But I think any combination of races would ultimately work, with some caution related to Fairies for the leather girls (cannot wear good armor and shields) and Lizard (low INT and PIE).

Attributes: My all time favorite VIT was again maxed first, then INT, followed by STR and DEX. Investments in PIE again depend on individual play style. To me, more is better. No char received points in SPD or SEN.

Skills: Mace&Flail for alchemist and priest, Staff&Wand for mage and psionic, Throw&Sling for everyone. Artifacts for the priest, the Amulet of Static is extremely strong in the early game, until AoE takes over around L10.

Starting Spells: Acid Splash and Itching Skin for the alchemist, Energy Blast and Terror for the mage, Heal Wounds and Paralyze for the priest, Heal Wounds and Terror for the psionic. Spell development is easy with this party, only make sure the alchemist always has enough money. Use picks for the non-combat buffs and some crucial spells, when not available from a vendor, and save the rest for level 6 and level 7 spells. Buy and find the other spells. I see Kunar’s spells more important for this party than Sadok’s.

I started the game spending some time in the lower monastery at L1, until 10k experience were reached. At L3-5, Gregor was killed (with Paralyze), and Alchemy was ground to until 50, including bonus, by mixing potions from Burz. Before selling them to Burz, the psionic identified them. To break the boredom routine, some Cure Lesser Condition and Heal grinding on the coffin took place in parallel, interrupted by random encounters. In the upper monastery, trapped chests were opened with the Divine Trap spellbook found there, but locked chests were left alone for a later next visit and KnockKnock. On Arnika Road, enemies were handled with CC spells (Terror, Paralyze, Freeze Flesh, Noxious Fumes) and some Stink Bombs from Burz. AoE damage was too weak at this stage.

In Arnika, all missions were done, only the the Golem in the bank vault was left for later.
Equipment was improved, magic schools were developed/ground to 55-60 and Restoration potions stocked. Party left Arnika at L9 for Kunar and the next stack of spells. All encounters were manageable, including brigants and queen ants. Clerics with elementals and crush were stronger until the party got its own elementals soon after (L11). They changed the game completely, and from then onwards, the game became easier and easier. Only high damaging monsters like crocodiles were small menaces. mage and psionic got Powercast, when the Swamp was reached. Party’s AoE was meanwhile good enough for the few situations the 2 elementals could not handle by themselves. Camping was a steady necessity to replenish mana, which was exhausted after most battles. Progress of the party was delayed by training of melee and ranged skills, whenever possible, instead of nuking enemies away in one combat round. Compared to a solo game, training ranged skills in a party is considerably more effort.

With a Spirit Staff from Trynton and the Ebon Gem from LMB, an Ebon Staff was built, the first real melee weapon.
Even after the L7 spells became available soon after, L4 and L5 spells remained the staple spells in this game phase due to their higher PL. Battles were very fast thanks to multiple AoE and ST damage per round. The alchemist became the tank, put in front, buffed with Bless, Haste, Superman, Body of Stone, and the others beat down everything, including large enemies like Hogars.

Finally, also all 4 chars had their own portal spells, some from picks, some from findable books. 4 portals provided unprecedented flexibility and ubiquity in Dominus, while at the same time I lost a sense of place, time and progress, so I actually used it far less than I could have.

In mid game, the alchemist wielded Winterwand and shield, the priest Diamond Eyes and shield, the psionic the Ebon Staff and the mage a Staff of Doom. Formation was 2 in the center and 2 in the back, but it did not matter a lot. The Caster Party held its ground many times when surrounded completely by eg Juggernauts. Casualties were few only (in total 10 until dark savant and no wipe at all), and were only caused by random magic instakill vs high level opponents or own defensive overconfidence.

At L22, all chars had learned all spells. In Bayjin, the alchemist was awarded a LightShield.
The Rapax Away Camp made the limitations of magic visible for the first time, when compared to melee. Not, because magic was that bad (as described in my coming Bishop Solo Adventure), but because melee, buffed with Haste and Superman, was so superior.

In Rapax Rift and Castle, The High Priestess’ Flamestaff replaced the Ebon Staff, and the priest now dual wielded Mauler and Diamond Eyes, she didn't need a shield anymore. The Vampire Chain was also tested once, but its damage and stun was far below the Mauler’s and its leech effect was unnecessary, because HPs were never a major issue during the entire game. And, last and worst, lash attacks exclude secondary weapons.

Under water, Nessie was slain with salvoes of Impaling and Medusa Stones by all 4 of them, only waiting until her Body of Stone had expired. In the Sea Caves, the party’s magic abilities were again stronger than their melee.

Finally on Ascension Peak, death spells (asphyxiation, quicksand, deathwish, deathcloud) and elementals cut some battles short, especially vs the demons. Here, the party endured a couple of temporary deaths due to high level magic instakills (L35 monsters vs L28 party).

The Dark Savant was easy again. Bela was buffed and survived till the end. The priest had to counter-heal missile attacks by the DS causing up to 60 damage vs the mage’s only 118. The Cloak of Stealth worn by the mage was helpful, because she wasn’t targeted often.

With Superman on each party member and Armormelt on the Savant, he was gone after 10 rounds of Medusas.

Bottom line: This caster party was defensively strong from the beginning, could easily accumulate enough melee and ranged power and outclassed any mixed party in magic versatility. The 2 empty slots were not missed a second. There is certainly space left for a more offensive setup by focusing earlier on STR instead of VIT and less grinding in the lower monastery and Arnika. Very enjoyable

[mpnorman10]

Very nice, an awesome display of an expert player taking a party with known weaknesses amd managing it for success.

[CeterumCenseo]

I am looking forward to reading your story about caster parties. Actually your post of around one year ago inspired me to try this one. I wouldn't have believed it would become that easy. Taking away the first part of the game until Arnika, I would be interested to hear from you how this party feels compared to your recent idea of the "New Beginners All Melee Party".

[mpnorman10]

Yes, it is a whole other world of Wizardry 8 game play.

[mpnorman10]

I have a number of questions about your party, CC, if you permit.

You mentioned Mace and Flail for your Alchemist and Priest, and I am sure that is just a slip (or am I missing something here) because the Alchemist does not have access to that skill, but what did you use for the Alchemist early-on? You mentioned using the Winterwand for a while (with a Shield) until you obtained the Ebon Staff and dumped the shield. Can you tell me a little bit about what you did there? I assume, since it was temporary, that you put zero points at level-up into Shield Skill. Is that the case or did you put some points into it? Did you use the Shillelah for a while?

Pushing Artifacts in the Priest... was that so the Priest could use Amulet of Static? How does the Priest fare with dual maces and no Dual Weapon Skill? Did you obtain an Amulet of Static before Arnika road?

You mentioned taking on Gregor at levels 3-5, but all of your characters share the same fast growth rate. Clearly you hold back levels, but do you only have some advance to 3 while others are allowed to increase to 5, which ones? How do you do that?

In your starting spells you emphasize Terror, taking it as an initial pick for two of your characters. Can you tell me about how you use that spell in battle, tactics and strategy? It is a spell I rarely if ever cast duing a game, especially for a magic-damage party.

In Bayjin, you came across a Light Shield (Jeanette drop?) and you gave it to the Alchemist? With that the Alchemist could no longer use a 2-handed weapon, so what did you use after that. The one time out of all my games I came across a Light Shield I happened to have a Shield-using Priest in the party and gave it to that character. The Priest can use a powerful Mace with the shield but one-handed Staves are not so hot.

Making that party work apparently required some training up of skills which is something you would of course be familiar with due to your solo party experience. It is something I never recommend, not because there is anything wrong with it in the hands of players who choose it, but because I feel the game is most fun without that much repetition. I tend to recommend parties for which that is optional, even played at expert difficulty.

I am not a purest about it and will go so far as to mix potions one at a time and use level 1 healing spells when healing the party between battles. I avoid, in my recommendations, anything that might be repetitive or boring while being aware that many players will choose such techniques. I am aware that Music, for example, can be trained as high as desired by charming Heli over and over with the Lute. She is good natured enough (whenever she is not blackmailing or demanding a bar tab be paid) so it rarely if ever creates a problem, but it is boring to do so (tried it in one game) and now I neither use that nor recommend it. I have no objection if a player choose to do that, however, certainly not if they have fun doing so.

The last two paragraphs are just to try to explain where I am coming from in not recommending the party you chose to others. There is no negative implication at all in that towards your party or the manner in which you utilized it.

Your experiences also underscore that in this game, pure magic will not work. There are several foes either immune or so high in level relative to the party and magical resistance that using magic to take them out is impractical. I think it is fair to say that there are less than a dozen foes of that type total in the entire game... but they are enough so pure magic is insufficient in this game. Adding a couple characters capable of melee or magic, as the situation requires and/or giving some mediocre fighting skills to the casters is sufficient.

Your emphasis on Vitality is interesting and I need to give it some thought. It is a trade-off between additional defense (hit points and Ironskin) vs additional offense (Power-Strike and Eagle-Eye). Hwve you tried both ways. Additional discuission of your perspective on this point would be appreciated.

I am pleased that you got a chance to experience the awesome power of a party capable of so much magical damage. The analogy I use is chopping down a forest (assuming this is done in balance ecologically so this imagination exercise does not result in appropriate guilt). Traditionally, such a forest is chopped down one tree at time. Instead if instead a spell shaved off the tops of all the tress at once, then another spell shaved a little more. The result, with random factors, would be that after so many spells, at some point, almost suddenly, most of the treas would be completely chopped down at once and the rest a spell or so later. That is more than softening up enemies with an AOE spell or two.

In a sense, when playing a magic damage party, the game rewards inefficiency. For example taking the long way through already covered territory or playing on expert difficulty (which essentially makes almost everthing less efficient). In spite of the huge number of portals, it behooves to not always take them. Fighting extra battles is not only fun, it is wise. The changing foes in areas keeps second and thrid passes interesting and fun. It could be called training, but I do not mean it that way. It is more a matter of developing a powerful party and using it, and not being a slave to the eventual, anti-climatic, goal. This is not necessary, and the game can be finished at level 22, with a full party doing everything, but that will not necessarily be the most fun. This game is about character selection, creation and development choices, unless doing a speciality run with another purpose.

[CeterumCenseo]

Thanks for your questions, mpnorman. I will try to answer them, but there are many questions, and for a couple of questions, I need to go back to the saves I still have, this will take some time.

Generally, for each game I play I write a document with everything which seems interesting to me at this point. Reason is I play many games in parallel, and I want to know where I was when I come back after some weeks or even months. The story of the caster party is a heavily condensed version of about 20 pages down to two, and I need to go back to the original document as well to get all the connections.

With the Alchemist, you are right, of course. The Winterwand is a one handed Staff. Damage is negledgible, but it has a nice 15% paralyze. From my solo games, I am a bit biased towards stun/paralyze over pure damage, because an enemy who cannot strike is the best enemy for a solo, when your party's melee/magic firepower is superior to the opponents for most of the game. So I am quite fond of these weapons.

About magic efficiency vs melee: I agree a well equipped and trained party of meleers has no match in damage output. I do not agree to the statement that melee is overall most effective. It is situation dependent: Try a bunch of seekers/millipedes. They will keep their distance and fire at you from a perimeter. With powerful cone magic, like Lightning, or the "Hits all Enemies" spells, they are gone from 2 spells in one round. With melee you have to run to the first 3, kill them in one round, move to the next three, and so on. Or Adamantium Slimes: A Concussion works wonders in damage compared to even high damage weapons due to their 90% DR.

I had this experience in 2 (still unfinished) games. One is a "Classic" Party with Fighter, Rogue and Priest. I cannot tell you how often I use these Whirlwind and Lightning spells, because Fighter and Rogue are so uneffective vs critters. And beyond L20, most enemies on places you run through like Arnika Road or Swamp are low level critters. Compared to that I have a solo Stealth-Mage (with 1 lvl Ninja, 94 Stealth and 70 MA), which has been an absolute killing machine until now with his wide array of AoE spells. Overall, the magic solo chars are much faster to play than the hybrids, and the non-casters have more severe problems imo, as I wrote in my Solo Guide.

Of course there are other situations, where melee is undoubtedly better. In one of my documents I wrote using magic vs high resistant opponents recalled memories of Biogoo's "bad breath challenge" of last year. It is simply not effective vs Savant Stuff, and you need so many mana refills. This is where melee shines.

I would like to mention Ranged once again: There are some battles, where good bullets/arrows/quarrels are the fastest and safest way to kill high HP monsters. When your skill is trained.

More to come soon.

[CeterumCenseo]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

You mentioned Mace and Flail for your Alchemist and Priest, and I am sure that is just a slip (or am I missing something here) because the Alchemist does not have access to that skill, but what did you use for the Alchemist early-on? You mentioned using the Winterwand for a while (with a Shield) until you obtained the Ebon Staff and dumped the shield. Can you tell me a little bit about what you did there? I assume, since it was temporary, that you put zero points at level-up into Shield Skill. Is that the case or did you put some points into it? Did you use the Shillelah for a while?

Pushing Artifacts in the Priest... was that so the Priest could use Amulet of Static? How does the Priest fare with dual maces and no Dual Weapon Skill? Did you obtain an Amulet of Static before Arnika road?

You mentioned taking on Gregor at levels 3-5, but all of your characters share the same fast growth rate. Clearly you hold back levels, but do you only have some advance to 3 while others are allowed to increase to 5, which ones? How do you do that?

In your starting spells you emphasize Terror, taking it as an initial pick for two of your characters. Can you tell me about how you use that spell in battle, tactics and strategy? It is a spell I rarely if ever cast duing a game, especially for a magic-damage party.

Alchemist started with Short Staff (Starter Eqt) + Shillelah (Burz or Upper Monastery), Priest with Mace (Starter Eqt, if you assign points in it) + Buckler (in a chest or Burz), Mage with Short Staff (Starter Eqt), Psionic did not use his dagger, got a quarter staff from Burz or in the upper Monastery).

Later in the game, the best available weapons were used: Enchanted Mace, Stun Mace. The Staff and Wand department doesn't offer much improvement in the early game, first change was the wand of Static in Trynton. Priest got a Disruptor Mace from Crock, the Mage got the Ebon Staff (The Alchemist kept Winterwand and her shield throughout the game) and the Psionic the Staff of Doom. SoD is so powerful, close to the CoC of the Fairie Ninja. It is an extended weapon and I gave it to the Psionic, which does less damage with magic than the Mage. Last the Priest got Diamond Eyes and Shield, then Mauler and Diamond Eyes, and the Mage took the Flamestaff instead of the Ebon Staff, which wasn't a big deal of an improvement. The Alchemist did use the Shillelah for some time, because it is the "best" staff until Trynton :-(. I tried it for secondary weapon as well, but this was not effective in this phase of the game.

About putting points in the Shield skill, I do not remember anymore. Generally, I found the regularly used skills grow by themselves, and shield definitely grows by itself with this party!
I put points into startup-investments (a new magic realm, ranged, melee, artifacts), so shield is unlikely. When I finished the game, shield was at 75 for the Priest and 81 for the Alchemist, because the Priest had changed to DW for the late game.

The Starter Chest can contain an Amulet of Static, otherwise the first place to get one is afaik Arnika Road, where it is in the open in the "green" area. I had it once from the Starter Chest, but not with this party.

Yes, holding back levels is part of my personal playstyle. It is easier, because you don't get scaling monsters in the Lower Monastery, but I like it also for the development: Nowhere in the game the progress of your personal skills is so visible, if you compare your first bunch of Green Slimes with those you meet when your skill is 20+. And all this under the limitation of L1 HPs!

I beat Gregor at L3, with some luck, because the Paralyze needs to hit, otherwise neither at L3 nor at L5 will this party accumulate the necessary damage to beat the 130+ HPs of Gregor, unless you go to the special tactics I described in the Solo Guide and Goudmindong added.
Holding back levels for this special battle doesn't make a difference. I mentioned L3-5, because some players prefer not to hold back levels, and it works as well.

I chose Terror over another damage spell, because I think the crowd control in the early game is stronger than magic damage. Thinning out the crowd, getting less attacks is always a good thing. Of course monsters do not always move where you want them, and you need to be prepared for this as well.
2 more things about Terror and my personal playstyle:
Since I hold back levels, see above, I stay at L1 as long as possible, developing my magic capabilities. Terror and Sleep are the only cc spells at L1, as far as I am aware. Sleep is unreliable and ends mostly with the first damage hit/spell. And its range is short. I do not use Sleep very often. Damage is meager with L1 spells cast at PL1-2 and 10 mana. But I do not think that it is crucial. So if you prefer to take Mind Stab and Frost instead, please go ahead.

[CeterumCenseo]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

In Bayjin, you came across a Light Shield (Jeanette drop?) and you gave it to the Alchemist? With that the Alchemist could no longer use a 2-handed weapon, so what did you use after that. The one time out of all my games I came across a Light Shield I happened to have a Shield-using Priest in the party and gave it to that character. The Priest can use a powerful Mace with the shield but one-handed Staves are not so hot.

Making that party work apparently required some training up of skills which is something you would of course be familiar with due to your solo party experience. It is something I never recommend, not because there is anything wrong with it in the hands of players who choose it, but because I feel the game is most fun without that much repetition. I tend to recommend parties for which that is optional, even played at expert difficulty.

I am not a purest about it and will go so far as to mix potions one at a time and use level 1 healing spells when healing the party between battles. I avoid, in my recommendations, anything that might be repetitive or boring while being aware that many players will choose such techniques. I am aware that Music, for example, can be trained as high as desired by charming Heli over and over with the Lute. She is good natured enough (whenever she is not blackmailing or demanding a bar tab be paid) so it rarely if ever creates a problem, but it is boring to do so (tried it in one game) and now I neither use that nor recommend it. I have no objection if a player choose to do that, however, certainly not if they have fun doing so.

Yes, Jan-Ette is the easiest way to drop it. I admit I went for it as a Guaranteed Random Drop. The Alchemist never used a 2 Hd weapon, my apologies for not being clear enough about this in my starting post. I was quite satisfied with the Winterwand, as explained above. It stuns, and the next char does double damage.

About grinding, I have come a long way. It is widely recommended also for parties, so I started with excessive grinding in my first solos. With solo it goes quite fast actually, and since every encounter in that Lower Monastery is a challenge, I do not personally feel it that boring. And I think it is better to have this feature in the game than not.
But with own experience, I think grinding is highly overrated. It is part of some min/max strategies, because you do overall more damage with higher skill. But necessary to beat the game? I think it can be greatly reduced until you hit reliably enough. It has its role in a few situations only:
- if you prepare for a battle against a difficult enemy. You try to beat him, get smashed, because your damage is too low. You go back, train hard, then challenge him again, win. What motivation could be better than this one?
- if you need some points in magic school to open the spells of a certain level. In this situation you have some options: delay level up, grind the magic school skill or wait for another experience level to get your Elemental or X-Ray.
- in dual/multiclass and one level in a foreign class to train a skill your home class doesn't offer. Stealth, Locks&Traps. This definitely is boring, but opening a 8 tumbler lock with Feathered Hat, Thieves Buckler and Lockpicks is not fun either, believe me.

Aside from that, grinding is not needed. If the skill is needed, it will develop by itself, otherwise it is not needed. I meanwhile stopped mixing potions and identifying them one by one. Hey all you out there: It is not necessary! :-)

Heli is charmed with the Angel's Tongue, which is a violin, not a lute. I used it too, with my solo Bard, because I thought it would make her stronger, but I don't believe it anymore. Worst case you risk a backfire and a reload, unless you ironman. So why bother? Otoh, buffed with INT items, Music is one of the fastest grinds of all skills. 10 minutes charming her for 70 skill increase in Music is not that much boring.

[CeterumCenseo]

Originally posted by mpnorman10:

The last two paragraphs are just to try to explain where I am coming from in not recommending the party you chose to others. There is no negative implication at all in that towards your party or the manner in which you utilized it.

Your experiences also underscore that in this game, pure magic will not work. There are several foes either immune or so high in level relative to the party and magical resistance that using magic to take them out is impractical. I think it is fair to say that there are less than a dozen foes of that type total in the entire game... but they are enough so pure magic is insufficient in this game. Adding a couple characters capable of melee or magic, as the situation requires and/or giving some mediocre fighting skills to the casters is sufficient.

Your emphasis on Vitality is interesting and I need to give it some thought. It is a trade-off between additional defense (hit points and Ironskin) vs additional offense (Power-Strike and Eagle-Eye). Hwve you tried both ways. Additional discuission of your perspective on this point would be appreciated.

I am pleased that you got a chance to experience the awesome power of a party capable of so much magical damage. The analogy I use is chopping down a forest (assuming this is done in balance ecologically so this imagination exercise does not result in appropriate guilt). Traditionally, such a forest is chopped down one tree at time. Instead if instead a spell shaved off the tops of all the tress at once, then another spell shaved a little more. The result, with random factors, would be that after so many spells, at some point, almost suddenly, most of the treas would be completely chopped down at once and the rest a spell or so later. That is more than softening up enemies with an AOE spell or two.

In a sense, when playing a magic damage party, the game rewards inefficiency. For example taking the long way through already covered territory or playing on expert difficulty (which essentially makes almost everthing less efficient). In spite of the huge number of portals, it behooves to not always take them. Fighting extra battles is not only fun, it is wise. The changing foes in areas keeps second and thrid passes interesting and fun. It could be called training, but I do not mean it that way. It is more a matter of developing a powerful party and using it, and not being a slave to the eventual, anti-climatic, goal. This is not necessary, and the game can be finished at level 22, with a full party doing everything, but that will not necessarily be the most fun. This game is about character selection, creation and development choices, unless doing a speciality run with another purpose.

What exactly do you mean with "last 2 paragraphs"? I count four.

If you try to do every single point of damage with magic only, I agree to your statement. Unless you make it a "rule" in a special game. The admittedly relatively mediocre melee damage of a caster party is fully sufficient to beat those high resistant enemies. Additional characters, a fighter or rogue, and access to the weapons casters cannot use (Bloodlust, Fang, Dread Spear) would speed up the game, but are not necessary. Definitely. And you forgot Ranged again. :-)

About VIT I am lowering my standards as well as with grinding. The issue is that those casters are extremely low in HPs compared to anything else. We had the SPD vs VIT discussion already, but my personal opinion is that defensive stability and these additional HPs will get you through some critical situations: Earthquake from Nessie, Whirlwinds and Whipping Rocks from Sprites, and melee of course. How often did I end up with single digit HPs after a battle?
Alternative is a party with some high SPD chars, which can do any heal / status cure before the enemy strikes. The point is that this party was so incredibly stable almost throughout the game that I never missed SPD in the entire game.

Last, do not underestimate the power of 125 in your magic school combined with 100 Powercast. The difference compared to a hybrid with 100 in magic school and typically no powercast is amazing even vs high resistant opponents. And you have four of them. Rapax just love to bathe in a Blizzard followed by a Tsunami in one round. It chops off more than the tree tops, to stay in your picture. These parties add a completely new experience to this brilliant game.

I finished this game at L27, doing more or less everything the game offers, but without experience grinding. I felt I had and have so many projects running in parallel, so finishing one once in a while is also a relief and sense of accomplishment. And I still have a couple ideas I did not even try yet: Currently a "self sufficient (solo) Lord" is roaming the Monastery: This means no trades with any vendor, you can only use what lies on the floor, is in a chest or dropped by a monster. I am very curious if this works till the end. And the band of 3 bards has not even started yet....

Please if you have more questions or need further information because I wasn't clear enough, just ask again.

[jack_was]

Tried solo bishop a bit but decided to start with lord able to wear the strongest armour and use HP draining stuff as well. VIT & PIE will be maxed first to improve both defense and mana pool. Time will tell if I'm patient and determined enough.

[CeterumCenseo]

I suggest to build either DEX or (better) STR, otherwise after some time, you won't hit a lot anymore. If you want PIE AND VIT, take a 2/2/2 pattern at least.

[mpnorman10]

Thank you for your answers, CC.