Favorite bard build?

[vysionier]

I have two ways I like to play my bards but I was curious how other people like to play them.

One way is new to me, and it's the front line sorta tank bard. Max out dex/vit first for reflexion and iron skin and dual wield swords and wands with a back up bow. Music is for party buffs only. He is never used as a main damage dealer but nonetheless he gets decent damage and to hit. I prefer mook.

Next way is a flank bard, develop str/dx and watch his sword and shield skills climb fast. Bow is the main weapon here and he packs a punch, doing as well or better than a ranger until the late game. music is backup only. Hobbit is best for this build in my opinion.

Does anyone have a different way to play bard? I'm curios if anyone's played with a faerie bard before, or any other races.

[mpnorman10]

My favorite Bard build is also a front line Bard. I call her the "Bloodlusty" Bard because she always uses the cursed sword Bloodlust.

This effectively knocks out the possibility of doing any range attacks but with all of the instruments there is always something useful to do in virtually every round. The cost of no range attacks (other than instruments) is tiny compared to the huge gain in melee capability. Developed and used this way it is the most powerful character build in Wizardry 8, IMO.

The other items of equipment are a Shield (Heater, usually, but sometimes Philosopher's Shield if I come across one), Bard gear.

Features include 125 Strength, Power-Strike, and Reflextion. Attributes at level-up: Str, Dex, then Sen and Vit. Mook or Hobbit are usual races.

In performance in melee with that sword, the Bard is only outclassed by the Fighter with a sword like Fang or better (or a Faerie Ninja with CoC, or a character with Light Sword). Early in the game the swings and attacks are 2x2, then 3x2. By midgame the attacks are 4x4x3 in a single round with damage of 35-50 per hit (unless doubled) and almost never missing. This is achieved by the Sword Bloodlust, its extra swing, the constant Beserk (feature of the weapon), and 150% damage bonus for having Strength at 125, plus Power-Strike. Both offense and defense are awesome and, oh yeah, she can use all of those instruments.

[vysionier]

That does sound pretty awesome! I definately can't say my bard is quite that powerful, but dual wielding fang and winterwand can get me some para then x2 dmg. Not only that, but thanks to bard gear I have 125 str as well, although no powerstike. I don't really see the need for powerstrike though as I won't be berserking, and dx+str is enough to hit anything. Not only that, but the only way to utilize the +10 iron skin from caliban's cuiras is to have the skill already, so that's extra dmg resistance.

[CeterumCenseo]

I'd say depends what else you have in your party. If the bard should stand her ground herself, she definitely needs stamina, and everything she does costs stamina, attacking, berserking playing music. So either you have a stamina-keeper just for the bard, because no one will destroy her stamina as fast as she does, or you focus on STR/VIT at all cost.
With the renaissance lute, unfortunately pretty late in the game, the game changes completely and bard becomes a magic perpetuum mobile in the damage section with Nuclear Blast + Cerebral Hemorrhage + Pandemonium. I saw her taking out the whole Rapax Army on the Battleplains alone with her music only.

With ~50 in Pickpocket, she could even acquire an instrument from Saxx. Don't worry, he'll keep his own. Pickpocket isn't worth a lot in the game, but a bard without ranged doesn't have many skills to develop.

Fang/Winterwand sounds awesome, but for a self-sustaining bard, I'd prefer a shield.

The Bard Armor is a jewel, the stats don't sound impressive, but they are so nicely crafted with all these small skills right and left. Cloak of Perception + Brilliant Helm will speed up her skill development considerably. Doing a Fairie is wasted in several ways, as carrying capacity is reduced (can maybe compensated, depending on what else you have in your party) and you could not wear these nice armor pieces. Alternatively consider Chamail (when you get ironskin from 100 VIT, the bonus isn't worth a lot anymore), and Divinemail, of course.

While the Bard is impressive in his melee output with Fang/Bloodlust, I think a rogue with his backstab bonus would be even stronger. Fighter is probably at par, but gets her Swings / Attacks a bit faster than colleague Bard.
But it is always good to look to other builds than the vanilla parties. They have a lot more potential than could be expected.

On Powerstrike, I tend in vysionier's direction. With the 40 bonus-STR, the 15 points are probably better invested in DEX/SEN/PIE. I need to check if Powerstrike is stronger than DEX/SEN. PIE would be for the Stamina.

Taking the bard serious as a music player, she won't have a lot of combat turns with melee, there is a lot to play: Haste, Bless, Sleep, Turncoat, Insanity, Heal All, reiterated.

But never, never I would turn her into something else at L18. The end-game instruments need a lot of reserve-levels to work reliably at high PL. And a L10 Fighter will be definitely weaker than a L28 Bard. She can't wear the Fighter's tank armor, but with SPD, Reflextion and Shield, her protection should be enough to survive in the frontline.

[vysionier]

I agree with you about switching classes from bard, it's a waste imo.

The case could be made for a faerie bard though, you can still wield mercurio's sword, ariels sandals, prosperos' cloak. You could wear faeries cap, there's the sprites dagger (3-14dmg I think, plus stamina regen) there's the faerie rod (6-18dmg? I think plus 50% hex) there's the fay ring plus ring of the road. All you are missing is caliban's and oberon's. Plus most bows can still be used.

[mpnorman10]

Yeah, your build does sound pretty excellent, taking full advantage of 50 Strength Attribute points that can come from Bard Items.

Using that you can stop Strength at 75 natural and still have 125 (except under water, of course).

So it is Power Strike vs. 25 additional attributes points and Iron Skin.

Actually, for my Bards, they have Strength 125, Senses near or over 100 and Dexterity at typically 110, except under water (or 100 and wearing a +3 AC Amulet of Healing). I do go for Vitality after those three attributes but it gets nowhere near natural 100 by end of game.

For Speed, with a Mook Bard, for example, it starts the game at 35. Oberon's Greaves brings it to 45. Snakeskin boots bring it to 55, plus 70 Speed from Rousing Drums brings it to 125 during battles (except under water).

The Bloodlust with its extra swing gives (by the middle of the game) 4 Swings, then 4 more Swings and then 3 Swings, all during a single round. I do not believe even a Rogue gets much more than that (It has been a while since I played a Rogue, CC, so tell me if I am wrong). Another advantage of Bloodlust is the +6 weapon initiative.

Power Strike basically makes tough armors and hides less effective. I do not have the details of the mechanism but I expect that against a foe with no armor or natural hide armor that it will make no difference. Toward the end of the game, skills that penetrate defense (Power Strike, Eagle Eye and Power Cast) become more important while defensive skills, including defensive Expert Skills become much less important because 1) Defenses by that point stop most attacks by that point and 2) even if that small number of attacks that get through was doubled the healing is awesome and can easily keep up by that point.

Toward the end of game the greatest dangers to the party seem to be magical in nature: Turn Coat, Quicksand, various clouds, which require magical protections and remedies.

Regarding Bloodlust (which can also be used with your attribute strategy) the damage printed on the weapon is merely decent, but it is doubled by constant Beserk and increased with the Strength bonus (already significant, mid-70s with the party at level 6-7 (Bard and Gadgeteer at 7 and the rest at 6). Apparently the two modifications (Beserk and Strength Bonus) multiply.

As an experiment, I thought I would try the party at that level against the Guardian Golum (just after obtaining the sword).. I did win (expert difficulty), and everyone was alive at the end of the battle, but calling it a success would be dubious because I had to use 3 resurrection powders. That is an awfully expensive "victory" for a result worth only a small fraction of that, but I was lucky enough to find 5 resurrection powders in the Monestary so I kept the result and played on. It was a test of the party at that level and the result of the test is: "not ready for that foe, yet".

Still, the party was impressive. Even those characters (including Bard) pushing Dexterity at every Level-Up miss over half of the time (getting better fast). The damage range for hits for the Bard with Bloodlust was 23-43 per hit (without doubling), typically 36, while the range for the others (other than the Ranger that was lower) was 2-14, typically 12 for hits. The Lord gets 2 attacks of 1 swing each and the Bard, at this point after just getting the sword gets 1 attack of 2 swings (due to the extra swing given by the weapon). The others just get 1 Attack and 1 Swing per round at this point. Against the 250 HP Golum, the Bard did easily over half of the damage. Just after that, fights against 8 Savant Troopers and 3 Level 9 Savant Humanoids were pretty easy (two separate battles) although in the later case It was scary with their long paralyzing axes (they caught me in the open, too). Only the fight against the Golum (3) and Gregor (1) needed Res Powders so far with all in the party alive by end of battle.

[biogoo]

A little bit of clear up on power strike:
It does not:
- Increase raw damage
- Pierce enemy damage resistance
- Increase number of attacks or swings
It does:
- Increase chance to not miss
- Increase chance to penetrate

Once again, penetration in Wizardry 8 doesnt mean piercing damage resistance, it means overcoming armor on (randomly) targeted body part.

As I cannot find the right formulas, I will talk from my experience: When it comes to chance to not miss and penetrate, it is about as good as the close combat skill, which is in turn half as good as a weapon skill. With the exception that close combat and weapon skills both increase number of attacks and swings (weapon skill twice as fast as close combat skill).

Power strike is a great tool for those who can get it early and also invest in it on level ups (it trains quite slowly in full parties). It is a "must have" for any character that for some reason doesnt invest into dexterity, as well as for those who use weapons with low hit chance bonus (hello bloodlust).

[vysionier]

I'm now curious about the bloodlust bard, and I was wondering if anyone knows if berserk from the weapon applies to an offhand weapon? I could still use a bow if I carry the appropriate scroll I'm sure.

And biogoo that was my understanding of the skill as well, it's nice to have with certain characters (berserking/dex neglecting) but unnessesary otherwise.

[biogoo]

Berserkering from bloodlust only affects bloodlust.
If berserkering does affect hit chance or not is an unanswered question, but even if it does, the effect is minimal. Berserker at will!

[vysionier]

Thanks! That helps a lot. In that case I might just slap a shield on him and say screw it to reflexion. Go str/vit for stamina/hp and powerstrike with iron skin. So str/vit, dx/sen.

[mpnorman10]

Nice description of Power-Strike, Biogoo.

A note since we are talking about the Bard. I mentioned "she" and "her", but the Bard in my current party is a male. I used to make all of my Bards female for the stamina-increasing item that only females can wear. However, the +1 Stamina it gives is too slow to be of any significant value during battle, IMO, and after battle Stamina comes back so fast it is irrelevant anyway. Soon I need both of those Bard item slots for other things, so I stopped caring whether my Bards were male or female. There is some benefit for Bard/Gadgeteer wearing that item for a few levels, but not make/bfeak. Still, there are enough females in my party so Vi calls them schoolgirls.

[vysionier]

I'm actually the same, stamina regen is nice when running, but totally unneeded otherwise. Of particular note though, on characters with very high stamina running doesn't seem to pull down their stamina any faster than it regenerates. It seems like the game regenerates your stamina and Sp based on a percentage of your total to a degree. It's probably way more complex than that though. I wish someone knew exactly.

[CeterumCenseo]

The bonus of the rogue vs. all other classes is the 1 - 4 additive multiplier for backstab. STR bonus is multiplicative multiplier, like:

Damage range = Weapon damage range x (Number of swings from level/SPD/CC/Sw/WeapIni + Berserk + Status/Hit from behind + backstab) x effective STR x (1 - enemy damage reduction).

For a fighter, Bloodlust doesn't do anything, except it is the best or among the best 1-Hd damage available at this time.

Bloodlust damage = 5-13 So at effective STR 50 and no enemy damage resistance and one swing in the profile, Bloodlust damage for all classes = 10 - 26 due to berserk, with backstab 15-39 up to 30 - 78. With more swings, which come early due to the high WeapIni, the advantage of the rogue absolutely remains the same, but percentage wise decreases. With more STR, advantage percentage wise stays the same, absolutely increases.

Correct?

I do not think there are many parties around with bard and rogue, and without rogue, there is no reason not to give bloodlust to the bard.

The necklace/locket only shine in situations with only a few game-minutes between battles, otherwise it doesn't do a lot and there are much better options for that slot.

It is correct the fairie can wear some of the bard specific armor, but I was so impressed with Caliban & Oberon, which are among the few only "intelligent" armor pieces the game offers. So I would not let it go. Only personal preference, the fairie is strong enough.

No one mentions the amulet of static. I mean, in this phase of the game, first reaching Arnika, it is one of the strongest weapons at all, if you dedicate a bit attention to Artifacts, by identify grind or skill pumping, and cheap to reload.

[biogoo]

Backstabbing requires a short range dagger or sword with "thrust" as possible attack mode. Bloodlust cannot "thrust", it can only "berserk".

[CeterumCenseo]

I read that before as well, but I am sure my rogue gets the backstab bonus, with verbose mode on the multipliers are listed. Otherwise, where should the x5 damage multiplier come from? If I knew how to upload pictures, I would put in a screen shot.

But maybe I confuse things here. Do you have an explanation?

[biogoo]

Interesting... looks like Myles actually backstabs with bloodlust. But he is not berserkering, so he doesnt get he berserk multiplier. So, it still doesnt work, just the other way around then I thought :D