Kernel Level Access AntiCheat is Really Bad

[Bu3(SW)]

I will start by explaining what a "Kernel" is and why it matters.

The Kernel is a part of the operating system with the highest level of access that can see everything and make changes to everything within the operating system and can interface as such with all files, software and hardware within the computer or networks that that system may have access and permissions to.

By default giving kernel level access to your computer for any reason is exceptionally dangerous because they can collect any data from your computer or run any script or program they want including malware.

Am I suggesting that the Dev will be spying on you or installing or running malware? No I am certainly not. I also would not suggest that you are trying to sleep with my wife. I would however not let you lay in bed with my wife naked (or at all).

Allowing this level of access and invasion of privacy as a general practice especially from a company owned by Tencent is exceptionally dangerous. Tencent is owned with a small 1% market share by The Chinese government and while this may not seem like a lot it granted the government special considerations in company decisions and allows them access (as Tencent is a Chinese company) to any and all files the company has access to.

This in theory could even result in your computer being used for Chinese state sponsored activities through the use of distributed cloud computing without you ever knowing it is happening.

In summary here are some risk of kernel level access:

Data Breach / Privacy
Malware
Control of your PC (for anything including cryptomining, DDoS or man in the middle attacks)
Surveillance
Use of Data by a foreign military through collecting of analytics
Distributed attacks

This is an exceptionally dangerous practice especially considering it is being used for gaming. To risk your livelihood for a game is not proper risk assessment. Even if The developer is never determined to be a bad actor and the Chinese Government never exercises authority they have to manipulate or collect data a hacker from within their network could cause substantial harm to your computer or your financials.

[Bu3(SW)]

Some Videos on the topic that go over the concept:
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/LY2hG-_asKU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrzuiJezZEo (long form of the short above)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY41wMvwrLQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqIV-je5itk

[Tomibouzu]

They dont care cause its not Dark and Darker. You're basically talking to the void.


Proof of my claim

Originally posted by Bu3(SW):

Originally posted by Tomibouzu:

They dont care cause its not Dark and Darker. You're basically talking to the void.

That is a nonsensical comment as they have made several changes based on player feedback.

You comment is also a Red Herring fallacy because they do not need to be Dark and Darker to care or implement changes and this game not being Dark and Darker is irrelevant to the issue brought up.

if they cared they would have something to say on topic rather than using the excuse to talk about dark and darker some more.

[Bu3(SW)]

Originally posted by Tomibouzu:

They dont care cause its not Dark and Darker. You're basically talking to the void.

That is a nonsensical comment as they have made several changes based on player feedback.

You comment is also a Red Herring fallacy because they do not need to be Dark and Darker to care or implement changes and this game not being Dark and Darker is irrelevant to the issue brought up.

[InsightKnight]

Brother you have no idea what you are talking about. The majority of anti-cheats are Kernel level and this argument has been beaten to death since Valorants release. Stop watching youtube videos for factual data its insulting.

Also just so you know Microsoft has had NSA built in backdoors since Windows 95. No one cared and now they phone tap everything. Get over it and move on.

[Bu3(SW)]

Originally posted by InsightKnight:

Brother you have no idea what you are talking about. The majority of anti-cheats are Kernel level and this argument has been beaten to death since Valorants release. Stop watching youtube videos for factual data its insulting.

Also just so you know Microsoft has had NSA built in backdoors since Windows 95. No one cared and now they phone tap everything. Get over it and move on.

Instead of attacking my post with fallacy how about you address many claims all of which are valid reasons why kernel level access is really dangerous.

[Lowbei]

Jester farm.

The argument that we shouldnt have effective anti-cheat because of some thing thats never happened before and would be international news, isnt taken seriously by devs, nor by people who understand the anticheat.

[Bu3(SW)]

Originally posted by Lowbei:

Jester farm.

The argument that we shouldnt have effective anti-cheat because of some thing thats never happened before and would be international news, isnt taken seriously by devs, nor by people who understand the anticheat.

Your personal lack of knowledge of an attack happening and ignoring security vulnerabilities make you a clown among clowns for trying to excuse ignoring best kept safety practices for the sake of burring your head in the sand and suggesting even remotely that it is a good thing to give away complete access your all of your data and control to a 3rd party for the sake of playing a game.

[Jayce1993]

heres what u need to know


Mithril Interactive is a subsidary for tencent

Mithril Interactive are registered to singapore why would they do that and not
in there homeland

Used ISPs for online services, anti-cheat, server, dataupload and telemetry:
- Shenzhen Tencent Computer Systems Company Limited (Tencent Cloud Computing)
- Aceville Pte.ltd. (ACE (Anti-Cheat Expert) > Tencent))
- Tencent cloud computing (Beijing) Co., Ltd.

MoreFun Studios is a video game developer headquartered in Shenzhen, Beijing, and Shanghai, and a subsidiary of Tencent Games

Used ISPs for online services, anti-cheat, server, dataupload and telemetry:
- Shenzhen Tencent Computer Systems Company Limited (Tencent Cloud Computing)
- Aceville Pte.ltd. (ACE (Anti-Cheat Expert) > Tencent))
- Tencent cloud computing (Beijing) Co., Ltd.

they want to ban tiktok some stupid reasons but wait till they see thousands and thousands have this Ace Ac installed on pples pc.

they are scanning ur computers the hole time ur playing the game and u dont think there not saving ur data.. look at how much they spy on there own citizens.

[Bu3(SW)]

Originally posted by Kraz Johnson:

heres what u need to know


Mithril Interactive is a subsidary for tencent

Mithril Interactive are registered to singapore why would they do that and not
in there homeland

Used ISPs for online services, anti-cheat, server, dataupload and telemetry:
- Shenzhen Tencent Computer Systems Company Limited (Tencent Cloud Computing)
- Aceville Pte.ltd. (ACE (Anti-Cheat Expert) > Tencent))
- Tencent cloud computing (Beijing) Co., Ltd.

MoreFun Studios is a video game developer headquartered in Shenzhen, Beijing, and Shanghai, and a subsidiary of Tencent Games

Used ISPs for online services, anti-cheat, server, dataupload and telemetry:
- Shenzhen Tencent Computer Systems Company Limited (Tencent Cloud Computing)
- Aceville Pte.ltd. (ACE (Anti-Cheat Expert) > Tencent))
- Tencent cloud computing (Beijing) Co., Ltd.

they want to ban tiktok some stupid reasons but wait till they see thousands and thousands have this Ace Ac installed on pples pc.

they are scanning ur computers the hole time ur playing the game and u dont think there not saving ur data.. look at how much they spy on there own citizens.

Yup it is incredibly dangerous and not even to suggest the dev might do something but if they get hacked every one of their users are potentially at risk to having a hacker have complete control over their computer since they would then have kernel.

Though if the dev would do something or not is a moot point because they simply should not have unfettered access and that is exactly what kernel level access is.

[Lowbei]

Originally posted by Bu3(SW):

Originally posted by Kraz Johnson:

heres what u need to know


Mithril Interactive is a subsidary for tencent

Mithril Interactive are registered to singapore why would they do that and not
in there homeland

Used ISPs for online services, anti-cheat, server, dataupload and telemetry:
- Shenzhen Tencent Computer Systems Company Limited (Tencent Cloud Computing)
- Aceville Pte.ltd. (ACE (Anti-Cheat Expert) > Tencent))
- Tencent cloud computing (Beijing) Co., Ltd.

MoreFun Studios is a video game developer headquartered in Shenzhen, Beijing, and Shanghai, and a subsidiary of Tencent Games

Used ISPs for online services, anti-cheat, server, dataupload and telemetry:
- Shenzhen Tencent Computer Systems Company Limited (Tencent Cloud Computing)
- Aceville Pte.ltd. (ACE (Anti-Cheat Expert) > Tencent))
- Tencent cloud computing (Beijing) Co., Ltd.

they want to ban tiktok some stupid reasons but wait till they see thousands and thousands have this Ace Ac installed on pples pc.

they are scanning ur computers the hole time ur playing the game and u dont think there not saving ur data.. look at how much they spy on there own citizens.

Yup it is incredibly dangerous and not even to suggest the dev might do something but if they get hacked every one of their users are potentially at risk to having a hacker have complete control over their computer since they would then have kernel.

Though if the dev would do something or not is a moot point because they simply should not have unfettered access and that is exactly what kernel level access is.

until something happens, which has never happened before in the history of video games, and would be international news, then no there is nothing to worry about. nobody who knows the subject well is concerned at all, its just people who dont know what they are talking about trying to spread fear, or those who want to cheat whining because they cant.

kernel level anticheat is here to stay and will be more common in the industry going forward, and no real gamer is going to not play a game because of its anticheat.

[Bu3(SW)]

Originally posted by Lowbei:

Originally posted by Bu3(SW):

Yup it is incredibly dangerous and not even to suggest the dev might do something but if they get hacked every one of their users are potentially at risk to having a hacker have complete control over their computer since they would then have kernel.

Though if the dev would do something or not is a moot point because they simply should not have unfettered access and that is exactly what kernel level access is.

until something happens, which has never happened before in the history of video games, and would be international news, then no there is nothing to worry about. nobody who knows the subject well is concerned at all, its just people who dont know what they are talking about trying to spread fear, or those who want to cheat whining because they cant.

kernel level anticheat is here to stay and will be more common in the industry going forward, and no real gamer is going to not play a game because of its anticheat.

That is nonsense and to suggest that nothing has ever happened is also wrong as there has been kernel level breaches a couple with gaming anti cheat and many with other kernel level programs
Regardless keeping a high risk security practice and even defending it it is mindbogglingly stupid and reckless. There is NO justification to put so many users at risk for data breaches and loss of control of their computers.

You and I talked about this in discord as well because you made the same tiered arguments there.

[Lowbei]

Originally posted by Bu3(SW):

Originally posted by Lowbei:

until something happens, which has never happened before in the history of video games, and would be international news, then no there is nothing to worry about. nobody who knows the subject well is concerned at all, its just people who dont know what they are talking about trying to spread fear, or those who want to cheat whining because they cant.

kernel level anticheat is here to stay and will be more common in the industry going forward, and no real gamer is going to not play a game because of its anticheat.

That is nonsense and to suggest that nothing has ever happened is also wrong as there has been kernel level breaches...

Incorrect. Name one single gaming company with kernel level anticheat that was hacked or had a data breach as a result of that anticheat.

[Bu3(SW)]

Originally posted by Lowbei:

Originally posted by Bu3(SW):

That is nonsense and to suggest that nothing has ever happened is also wrong as there has been kernel level breaches...

Incorrect. Name one. Just one.

Genshin Impact had a Kernel level access breach as did valorant. I already gave you thius information before and I am not ask jeeves do your own searches for info and as I said before if it even happned is irrelevent because the security risk is readily apparent and nobdy should have unfettered access to your computer or your data.

You will of course come back with "prove it " and other nonsense fallacy statements i am sure as you have before. I do not need to prove it because at the end of the day this is a massive security concern that simply has no functional need. Heuristic anticheat programs would function just as well if not better without compromising security.

An anticheat does not need to have kernel level to function well and actually EAC is a kernel level that functions poorly and is easily bypassed by cheaters. I will not comment on methodology or on ACE but using EAC as an example it is readily apparent that by nature of being kernel level anticheat does not mean it is more effective.

[Lowbei]

Originally posted by Bu3(SW):

Originally posted by Lowbei:

Incorrect. Name one. Just one.

Genshin Impact had a Kernel level access breach as did valorant. I already gave you thius information before and I am not ask jeeves do your own searches for info and as I said before if it even happned is irrelevent because the security risk is readily apparent and nobdy should have unfettered access to your computer or your data.

You will of course come back with "prove it " and other nonsense fallacy statements i am sure as you have before. I do not need to prove it because at the end of the day this is a massive security concern that simply has no functional need. Heuristic anticheat programs would function just as well if not better without compromising security.

An anticheat does not need to have kernel level to function well and actually EAC is a kernel level that functions poorly and is easily bypassed by cheaters. I will not comment on methodology or on ACE but using EAC as an example it is readily apparent that by nature of being kernel level anticheat does not mean it is more effective.

rofl no they didnt, which is why you cant prove that.

‘dont ask me to prove it’ lol

[Bu3(SW)]

Originally posted by Lowbei:

i like how the goalposts shifted from “name one company that was hacked or had a data breach as a result of kernel level anticheat” and they mention sony, who didnt have kernel level anticheat lol

cant take them seriously.

It is about the dangers of kernel level access in general not even specific to anticheat. It is a piss poor practice.