Understanding tank statistics

[Jack]

I'm a little confused why the Brits cheaper churchill has higher penetration values on the chart than the more expensive one, despite the description saying it has an improved gun.

Also how comes Jagdtiger has less penetration than King Tiger? Is that how the tank really was?

Thanks.

[ZekeWolff]

At 100 meter, firing at a Homogeneous Armor Plate at 30 degrees from vertical, the 8.8cm KwK 43 L/71 could penetrate 203mm, whilst the 12.8cm PaK40 L/55 could "only" penetrate 189mm. At 500 metres, the 8.8 could penetrate 185mm, the 12.8 penetrated 166mm, and so on. So yes, the 8.8. L71 had better penetration. Even when the 12.8 PaK44 fired the superior Pzgr43 (tungsten AP round), the 8.8 KwK 43 firing standard AP rounds, still ruled.

~Zeke.

[Jack]

Okay good to know! Quite interesting learning about all this. Also, unrelated: How comes a Brit armoured car cost more than a tetrach, when the latter has better armour yet same speed rating and gun?

[Simers]

Originally posted by darbyjack:

Okay good to know! Quite interesting learning about all this. Also, unrelated: How comes a Brit armoured car cost more than a tetrach, when the latter has better armour yet same speed rating and gun?

The armored car feels faster so not sure about the speed rating, either way - their armor is ♥♥♥♥ so I would suggest not buying either.

[Jack]

You're right, just tried them both out in a straight line and the armoured car definitely is faster. The info in the stats must be wrong.

[ewt.strat29]

They are actually bad buys at the start for price. Casue ure fighitng luchs or 222. You want a dodge to counter the german 20mm lights... or a tank. Because dodge has car armor.. which doesnt actually get peentrated the same as armor. Unless your very confident you can kill them on first shot from Max range i'd stay away from these daimler and tetract

Imo they have very special use in flanking tanks late game.. Daimler is faster (and turns much faster wheels). This is something dodge cannot do due to firing arch and gun stability ..

[Real Goblin]

Originally posted by ZekeWolff:

At 100 meter, firing at a Homogeneous Armor Plate at 30 degrees from vertical, the 8.8cm KwK 43 L/71 could penetrate 203mm, whilst the 12.8cm PaK40 L/55 could "only" penetrate 189mm. At 500 metres, the 8.8 could penetrate 185mm, the 12.8 penetrated 166mm, and so on. So yes, the 8.8. L71 had better penetration. Even when the 12.8 PaK44 fired the superior Pzgr43 (tungsten AP round), the 8.8 KwK 43 firing standard AP rounds, still ruled.

~Zeke.

Only half the truth. At ranges exceeding about 1km, thr 128mm gun could pierce more armor than the 88 because of a thing known in physics as Kinetic Engery (KE=1/2mass * velocity^2).
Because thr 128mm round has more KE to begin with (note this does not mean a higher muzzle velocity), as well as a much greater mass, the friction of air has reduced affect on it, it slows down less, and retains much of the energy it starts out with. Unlike the 88, which gets much of it's energy from the velocity, and since the mass is not as great, drag gets the better of it and quickly cancels out the enormous energy produced from the velocity.

TL;DR, a larger diameter shell has better pen at higher ranges compared to shells with more velocity but less mass.

[Jack]

Does this apply to the game? The stats say the KT has better penetration at longer ranges. I know the Tiger also had better penetration than the Panther at long range, but apparently in this game the Panther has better gun at long ranges (or so I am told).. Would explain the price.

[Ðëprávèd•Mïšçréånt]

Originally posted by Strat29:

They are actually bad buys at the start for price. Casue ure fighitng luchs or 222. You want a dodge to counter the german 20mm lights... or a tank. Because dodge has car armor.. which doesnt actually get peentrated the same as armor. Unless your very confident you can kill them on first shot from Max range i'd stay away from these daimler and tetract

Imo they have very special use in flanking tanks late game.. Daimler is faster (and turns much faster wheels). This is something dodge cannot do due to firing arch and gun stability ..

I wouldn't describe them as bad buys, when playing competitively yes, there is a build order you need to follow as everyone else does. If you deviate from the build order it can cost you the game.

With that said the first Churchill is only available when All units are turned on.
That Churchill is a push tank, you buy it when there is a panzer 4 H on the field or even a stug.
The front plate will deflect or absorb all shots unless they get lucky.

You roll it forward slowly backed by an AT gun and Inf or a SPG
You need to know when to use these tanks and it comes back to what they have against you and what terrain you are fighting on.
on hilly terrain use bazooka's and mortars.

[Krieger]

Originally posted by darbyjack:

You're right, just tried them both out in a straight line and the armoured car definitely is faster. The info in the stats must be wrong.

The stats show the maximum speed which is the same for both vehicles but acceleration and turn speed of Daimler AC is much better so in most cases it is faster. Tetrach otoh has an advantage when breaking through some obstacles like factory walls where AC would bounce off. (tested this with the current beta.)

[handzy]

Originally posted by Deus_Drone:

I wouldn't describe them as bad buys, when playing competitively yes, there is a build order you need to follow as everyone else does. If you deviate from the build order it can cost you the game.

Theres no build order, you can buy whatever you want!!! Its pretty flexible in competitive gaming...

[Jack]

Originally posted by Strat29:

They are actually bad buys at the start for price. Casue ure fighitng luchs or 222. You want a dodge to counter the german 20mm lights... or a tank. Because dodge has car armor.. which doesnt actually get peentrated the same as armor. Unless your very confident you can kill them on first shot from Max range i'd stay away from these daimler and tetract

Imo they have very special use in flanking tanks late game.. Daimler is faster (and turns much faster wheels). This is something dodge cannot do due to firing arch and gun stability ..

I've used Jeeps and dodges but they just catch fire from a few infantry bullets (at least that's what happened to me). A Daimler vs 222 is very risky. I normally get first shot in succesfully, but is a bit of a gamble, you're right. A 222 can shred apart a daimler and tetrach with much ease

[Ðëprávèd•Mïšçréånt]

Originally posted by handzy:

Originally posted by Deus_Drone:

I wouldn't describe them as bad buys, when playing competitively yes, there is a build order you need to follow as everyone else does. If you deviate from the build order it can cost you the game.

Theres no build order, you can buy whatever you want!!! Its pretty flexible in competitive gaming...

What I was referring to is buying that early 222 then buying a Stuart to counter it.

If you play 10 games and in every game the german player buys a 222 then the US player buys a stuart the US player is buying the counter however within those 10 games that technically is a build order.

[ewt.strat29]

Originally posted by Vodka Putin Gazprom:

Originally posted by Strat29:

They are actually bad buys at the start for price. Casue ure fighitng luchs or 222. You want a dodge to counter the german 20mm lights... or a tank. Because dodge has car armor.. which doesnt actually get peentrated the same as armor. Unless your very confident you can kill them on first shot from Max range i'd stay away from these daimler and tetract

Imo they have very special use in flanking tanks late game.. Daimler is faster (and turns much faster wheels). This is something dodge cannot do due to firing arch and gun stability ..

I've used Jeeps and dodges but they just catch fire from a few infantry bullets (at least that's what happened to me). A Daimler vs 222 is very risky. I normally get first shot in succesfully, but is a bit of a gamble, you're right. A 222 can shred apart a daimler and tetrach with much ease

RE jeeps Recent patch? recently there has been changes the jeeps and now more.. next patch they will be nerfed a bit too in terms of armor.

But for Dodge will engine damage very easy though.. but it doesnt matter. The majority of the time it will just be immobile and a quick repair.. you have to always have it facing the right way basically. Ummm range is important too.. small arms can only penetrate you at a certain range

[Jack]

My jeep/ dodge engines catch fire often with damage. Maybe just bad luck.

[handzy]

Originally posted by Deus_Drone:

Originally posted by handzy:

Theres no build order, you can buy whatever you want!!! Its pretty flexible in competitive gaming...

What I was referring to is buying that early 222 then buying a Stuart to counter it.

If you play 10 games and in every game the german player buys a 222 then the US player buys a stuart the US player is buying the counter however within those 10 games that technically is a build order.

A counter is a build order?
Thought a build order would be like strictly stcking to a set order. For example 3x assault squds, but if the other person buys a halftrack for example you'll be screwed, build orders aren't that solid in this game. Yes you can buy certain units to ocunter others and you'd proably want to buy a luchs instead of a 222, but you can't really have a build order for Assault Squad!
Maybe you always start with a few rifleman and wait for dodge as Commonwealth, which is a great stratergy, but if someone goes a p3 you are in trouble.
I understand your point Deus I just think this game has too much variety for a set order!