Balance issue?

[lord_sitruc]

I was just wondering if balancing is on going. I play the allies and have been crushing the axis in all the games I have been playing, I naturally though I was just doing very well. Then, I played the germans, and they felt weak and under populated. Now I don't know if its because I am just a better allied player or if they have some kind of advantage. All I know is that as the axis player I felt like i was fighting 2x shermans 4x squads and 1x arty while I was having trouble fielding 3x squads 1x arty and 1x tank. Also my tanks felt weak and squishy compared to the sherman, I pulled out a Pnz 4 and figured it would wreck the sherman but multiple bounces later my panzer had been wrecked and the sherman stood their defiantly. Is this just me needing to stick to the USA or is there a strange advantage right now in beta for the americans as they work out the balancing?

[ewt.strat29]

hmmm from a player who lives and breaths this game. Not really in my opinion.

In the current competition, we are finding german assault squad spam very very effective at 100mp. Germans should outnumber USA at the start, until stuart is out. Then you go P3. Then they go sherman you go H. You could skip any of the steps and go to H if you like.

It's probaly a embalance of skill on the teams more then anything. If you were buying infantry non stop, german will always have more then USA. They don't do as well in a shoot out because they don't have garands, but the numbers make up for it. Even if USA does go the .30 call 1 pointer special point squad. You should still have the numbers + a veteran sniper to kill all the infantry.

The only thing on the USA team which is OP imo is the shotgunners

Germany have a bradenergers and assautl squad spam

[ewt.strat29]

I suppose it also depends on how you play germany.

Regular squad spam might not work straight away as they are quite expensive. Veteran sniper is a great call to 1 pointer that will also turn the tide in early infantry fights with USA. Also bradenburgers 2 point infantry have stealth modifier with 4 of them with panzerfauts. This is one of the op units of germany since AS 1. But now its assault squad spam.

Atm I am leaning towards germany being stronger. But usa can be good because of the shotgunners and croc depending on map. That's probaly why you could of felt that, because USA basically gets a free sherman in the 3 pointer special infantry call. You get the marder which is not really a infantry support/ tank.

[Norbo]

Even though I've only played a couple of games, the new infantry prizing seems very intriquing. Can't wait to see how the new elite squads affect gameplay.

A couple of things popped into mind while playing.

-Slugger. Still 40CP. It's an Achilles after all, the gun is only slightly better. Isn't the heavy tank CP a bit unreasonable?
-I'm not sure if the current approach with hero tree level requirements is very practical. Considering the role units like StuH or Sherman 105 have on emplacement spam for example, it would be good to think the levels individually. That said, I really like the emphasis on cheap hero units, atleast here in the low levels.
-Artillery CP. 28 for Hummel, 30 for SfH18? What is this :)?
-US Sniper. The Vet sniper has always been a pain in the ass, and now the Yanks don't get access to a sniper before level 13. Cruel.

Anyways complete support on the decision to consentrate on the techical stuff ATM. There wil be time to tweak the balance later.

[76561198101175145]

As far as I know, beta is not balanced yet. There is also lack of quality feedback from people who know this game very well. Most people are waiting for the game to get fixed first.

As for infantry spam, I must say it was a new feeling to be able to spam infantry, esp. assualt squads. At first I hasitated a bit thinking I might be overspending on infantry and I won't be able to save up for a tank or something like that. But soon it turned out that it would be a mistake not to spam infantry because I was able to quickly overun enemy forces.

I can't say yet whether it is a good thing or a bad thing. I think AS1 plays really well on r5 maps or on maps like 3v3 Lakeland. I believe that most player don't enjoy/struggle with fast micro. A faster spammy gameplay might put them off.

Having said that infantry spam is a huge improvement over insane emplacement spam which we had for so long in AS1. Do you remember dozens of HMGs and 20mm guns in round sandbags one on top of the other around flagpoints? That was one r3tarded gameplay!

[Shaun/Shinsy]

Do you remember dozens of HMGs and 20mm guns in round sandbags one on top of the other around flagpoints? That was one r3tarded gameplay! i doo remeber the inzane hmg spam befor the last patch in AS1 and it was eaven worse when the sand bags could resist heavy arty. ranked games back then was just the team ho could spam the most HMG`s :P

[ewt.strat29]

Agree some what on emplacement spam on very narrow maps like village 4v4. That gameplay is much worse then the infantry spam gameplay you find now.

Not sure if there is a fix for this, but I'm not really liking the spam of infantry. It feels a bit mechanical, but it does play fast and action packed.. Not sure what the fix to it is, but for me it seems the lower tier troops are a bit OP in comparison to price.

AS 1 seemed to have a good balance - it was just the maps that were letting it down imo.

[ewt.strat29]

Also mention it is a improvement to men of war 1, where it was whoever had the heaviest tank won the game.

[DeltaDude]

The major balance changes will come a bit later in beta, but we do have something coming up very soon that will be interesting to get your feedback on.

[76561198101175145]

Originally posted by DeltaDude:

The major balance changes will come a bit later in beta, but we do have something coming up very soon that will be interesting to get your feedback on.

There is no "later". Only 10 days to go.

I agree that spam is not a good thing esp for RTT game. Mechanical spam takes away the whole charm of infantry tactics. Stupid AI, pathfinding, lack of battle array makes MoW infantry spam look really ugly.

I would like AT infantry to be more reliable and AT nades to be more useful. It is bad gameplay to rush vehicle and it should be punished. Poor AT infantry just encourages bad gameplay.

[Osseon]

Honestly all the Tank destoryers for both sides needs to be rebalanced. Hellcat is a in a bad way right now. It needs more speed or a price deduction. The wolverine is a pointless buy with the range reduction and lack of decent armor.

The STUG III is underpriced, as well. The Hetzer should be brought back into the competitive mode as well IMO.

[ewt.strat29]

cheers godwin for your input, I agree on the infantry spam in early game to late game.... It seems to draw out in 1v1's and 2v2's for atleast the majority of the game.

I have played AS 1 alot since playing AS 2, and trying the same tactics. Infantry swarms just don't work in AS 1. I think it might be because of cover or rifle damage? Not exactly sure, but tactics like spamming infantry is not as effective.

[ewt.strat29]

Since playing alot of AS 2 now and seeing 20+ tournament games, I'd like to push my thoughts a bit more on balance.

On that point map sizes change the game entirely.. For example if we 1v1 on spring it's a bit different. Becaue 1 counter means it can easily counter the entire map because of the placing of flags and the small size of map. Spamming will work still, but a counter will work too strongly. A 222 can counter the entire map, same as a stuart. Unlike the wide favoured 1v1 maps by the AS 1 competitive community in the R5 map pack, you can't avoid the counter and play on a flag away from the counter if you choose to. That depth of play is reduced.. That's why we like playing R5 map pack because of the interesting nature of the terrain, buildings and above all width of the maps. But if we do play R5, it seems infantry spam is king now.. but if we paly default we lose the depth of width of maps.

Never the less even on default 1v1 map (the one we have now) gameplay is still spammy.
Hopefully spring is a example of a small 1v1 on rotation. But then again the infantry spam problem is still there. Some food for thought i guess..

[76561198101175145]

R5 maps have been motivated by a certain vision of gameplay, esp 1x1s. They provide variety (Lumber vs Kreuzberg) and they really seem to bring out the best out of AS1 strategies and tactics.

Well, I only saw 2 1x1 maps in AS2 and I struggle to see how they can follow any vision. They look random to me. One is big, the other is small. One allows flanking, the other doesn't. One has decent distance from spawn to flags, the other is too small.

What they have in common are two features that I hate most about them. 1.) The spawn is closer to the left flag and further away from the right one. So much for giving us a fair choice which flags we want to attack! The game play is linear and very much like Strat point it out to be. This also unbalances the sides: one homeflag might be easier to hold/assault than the other.

2.) The flagpoints are very close to each other. You hold the middle = you hold them all. 3 cap can be achieved a lot easier. It just helps to destroy the tactical and strategical gameplay even more. Like Strat says it just promotes rock paper scissors gameplay because one big gun can easily lock down all flags.


The situation is AS1 is like this: in general, very few people play 1v1s (a small fraction compared to 3v3 Farmland), very few (uncompetitive) 1v1 players play Reloading Point only, all serious 1v1 players play r5 maps because standard 1x1 maps are cr@p. So what will happen to the MM if most ranked games we will have to play on the old AS1 1v1 maps?

Instinct, like Triumph, should listen to the community more and create really fantactic maps, esp for the MM. 9 day to the release and we know ♥♥♥♥ all about Instinct's vision for AS2 competitive gameplay. Why can't we hear and get excited about new tactics and strategies? Instead we have Stug for 550MP and it is everybody's guess what the heck that is all about. One thing is to make the game and another is to share the information about the game with all players.

Btw, can you imagine the AS2 spam on tiny old maps like Reloading Point, Argentan, Frozen River or Winter Fields/Hills/Town? It's gonna be just r3tarded.

[ewt.strat29]

AS1 gameplay does seem superior in depth of strategy. That's if this is what they are wanting to improve. It seems to me accessibility to the masses is the main thing that is of focus in terms of gameplay. Which is fair enough, and a good goal to go towards as a bigger player base is more fun for all....

There are some great improvements in AS 2 , if they fix the performance.. I'd be willing to keep playing and pushing others to play AS2 if balance/gameplay will improve. As it has a better engine and tools, but right now AS 1 gameplay is superior in depth of strategy.

I think you explained map sizes best Franek, with :
just promotes rock paper scissors gameplay because one big gun can easily lock down all flags.

Infantry spam:
mechanical, action packed but no strategic depth.

[Thompson]

Well regarding this infantry "spam" ! It might mean things are actually happening and not having this WW1 type of gameplay of AS1 where the infantry play kinda stopped as soon as infantry and MGs found their way behind cover in a sufficient number. It was mostly about vehicles and emplacements but now inf vs inf works a little better than before.
I've found the new infantry play together with the new tank meta makes the game more timing-based and more predictable which is a huge plus when making strategies.

Edit: When saying infantry play kinda stopped I mainly mean in general the infantry ability be used offensively is greatly reduced.