Churchill VII CroC and AVRE

[Opavius]

Hi guys, what are your opinions about those 2 machines?

I think that since pak 43 was added, Churchills are overall almost useless... What do you think about CroC and his pricing ?

Also, AVRE could be very usefull tank destroyer (can kill almost anything - the only tank that can frontally kill damaged King Tiger), but its range 80m is even with shorter ranges useless... since it uses almost the same type of "mortar" as Cromwell CS, AVRE should definitely get better range. It would be also another solution for problematic late game for UK and lack of any decent heavy tank.

[ewt.strat29]

i think they are both good. Not sure about giving them any more buffs. These things are extremely hard to kill can do well. If croc was cheaper it would be a bit too good.

I always buy a croc churchill most of my games and they do well until the vet tiger is out. It does well not as a killer of heavy tanks as it is not it's purpose. It does well to cover an area from everything else but heavier tanks and forces a heavier tank to come close.

IMO avre is already very good. But it is map specific where u can get behind some sort of hill. They would be a bit OP with additional range. Versing them you can really only track them then flank.

[Vashyo]

I think they kinda miss the effective part of gameplay, if you get one early enemy will just buy pak43 for cheap counter. If you bring it too late, enemy allready has a tiger or a panther on field that can atleast render it allmost unusable.

BIgger maps ofcourse their effectiveness suffers from their speed, since they come to the field real late.

and yes avre is very map specific tank, most games u can detrack it miles away before it gets into firing range

[Opavius]

That is what i was thinking - since pak 43 they are (i think) useless in team games. In 1v1, IF game lasts so long that UK side can buy croc, and enemy has no Hero points for pak 43, it can be hard nut... but in team games (2v2+) where at least one guy can buy pak 43, almost no chance - slow speed (you cannot run away), long reloading time and the fact that you have to go really close (AVRE - 80 metres) makes it just a waste of 6 HP. I know, AVRE has really powerfull shells, but how many times you can get such close ? Its almost better to buy radio operator for 4 HP... At least 100 metres would be OK i think.

For example, KV2 costs same 6HP and has weaker gun (standard 150mm) so it cannot be purely tank hunter - well on hte other side, it can hit upper armour so i saw many times KV2 killing Panthers, Tigers... , but with its range (when shooting on max range), even for killing emplacements, it is almost unreachable...

But besides skirmish, i only rarely see effective use of AVRE. So maybe its worth trying, make its range longer (to 100m lets say) and see if it would not be OP.

+ The fact UK can use any decent tank killer...

[Norbo]

Who buys a PAK 43 anymore? It's a much less effective weapon than in AS1 with these new range/penetration values.

At its current max range of 150 meters, the PAK43 gets countered very easily by a Cromwell CS. Also, Church VII has 152mm of frontal armour; the long 88 can't penetrate that from safe ranges anymore. Hauling a big-ass gun like this to 120-130 meters or so from the target is a risky business.

Haven't played many Commonwealth vs Ger games yet, but I feel the British Croc does have a decent breathing space right now. It's always been a very hard tank to kill because of it's resistance to panzerschreks/dynamine/radio op flares, and the lower penetration values make it impervious to most german cannons. Sure you can track it quite easily with a Vet Tiger or so, but actually killing a Churchill VII is a completely different task.

PS. AVRE can't be any cheaper, because it's always been very good in it's niche terrain aka hilly places (or urban, just for the lolz). It's one of the most situational units in game: decreasing the prize/ range buff would only make it OP for a couple of maps/places, without making it any more usefull in general. You'll never use an AVRE on level ground anyway, so a PAK43 isn't the thing an this tank should worry about

[Opavius]

I never saw big problems with killing Church VII (mine or opponent´s). Even Tiger or Panther with APCR can kill it quite easily. Not to mention, you dont have to kill this machine - its enough to detrack it and damage gun - than its just sitting CP with no chance to be repaired.

+ Have you forget how easy it is for StuH to kill it ? Churchills turret its a whole weakspot... i saw many attacks (Church Croc/normal + infantry) that failed after Church got turret down by StuH... for me its still risky unit, it must get close (both AVRE and Croc) to be effective - but when they are close - no chance to repair.

[HaZZarD]

.


"the Britishmade Churchill tank, though slow, carried impressive armor. If you use a
Churchill variant with a 6-pounder gun, you will have a few sabot rounds on
board, providing this tank with formidable ammunition capable of destroying a
Panther or Tiger tank from any facing"



.

[Opavius]

Nice HaZZarD, but tell me how many times in normal games (not mods) have you used AVRE? I bought it just a few times, just for fun, but even in those times it was not usefull... tell me, which player will go 80 metres close with his tank ? Noone... Also, once you get close with those tanks, you get soon damaged enough to be useless...

[Osseon]

The AVRE is only for Urban maps IMO. If you can close distance behind a building it makes for a very effective weapon to 1HKO any tank the enemy has. Playing the AVRE on an open field is useless.

Honestly sometimes I feel the AVRE is the only late game option the UK have since their crappy Centurion dies if anything caughs on its tracks.

[Opavius]

Yep...

[HaZZarD]

Like I said above :


"the Britishmade Churchill tank, though slow, carried impressive armor. If you use a
Churchill variant with a 6-pounder gun, you will have a few sabot rounds on
board, providing this tank with formidable ammunition capable of destroying a
Panther or Tiger tank from any facing"


Commonwealth in 1944 had a Churchill variant with the 6 pdr (57mm) gun which with sabot rounds could penetrate tigers.

Just saying it would be a nice addition

[Osseon]

Originally posted by HaZZarD:

Commonwealth in 1944 had a Churchill variant with the 6 pdr (57mm) gun which with sabot rounds could penetrate tigers.

Just saying it would be a nice addition

It always felt weird that the Churchill 4 has a better gun than the churchill 7

[Opavius]

Well why not HaZZard, but i would most likely stay with some in-game balance. As a start i would increase range from 80m to 100m and "watch" what will happen.

[HaZZarD]

I think first thing to do is bring back ranges to AS1 level or talking about tanks or AT-Guns is not that important as they suffer so hard by range reduction that they can no more be used as they should.

[HaZZarD]

it's ok for the AVRE to have very short range compared to other tanks , what is not ok is being forced to go inside enemy's infantry lines to fire a shot.

[Opavius]

"what is not ok is being forced to go inside enemy's infantry lines to fire a shot." yep and this is the reason we should at least try longer range, like 100m. Because going close means almost 100% chance of beeing damaged (and unrepairable so close tothe line) or killed - 80m is no prob for radio operator - who will make sitting duck from it.

P.S. I am afraid we have to forget about AS1 ranges and work with what we have.