[SPOILERS] Am I trying to read to deep into it?

[WrongCapy]

The last cutscene from the Night Call game before the final boss battle the main protagonist partner, Amy, seduces him and says that is what Jack or David really wanted and "[..] that's what you all want." Later on even saying "This is what you like roleplaying, pretending... hiding."
The voices in the boss battle also says something like "She is mine! My daughter and I do what I want with her." I thought that maybe Amanda (Amy) was experiencing some kind of sexual abuse. If the game's Amy is called that because of David's sister, does that mean that he had sexual fantasies about her just like their dad? So this is why she says that's you all want.

[Danimita]

I don't think you're overthinking it. There are definitely a few things throughout the game that point at him maybe following his father's footsteps in some ways...

[superwriter]

It's entirely possible: he knew what his father was doing, and the guilt and shame of keeping it a secret could've easily messed him up to the point of developing some pretty dark and twisted thoughts.

At the same time, David's first post indicates he's seen things in Night Call that he didn't put in; Amy's dialogue in that scene could be coming from Amanda herself. Victims of sexual abuse sometimes develop compulsive/hypersexual behavior.

It could even be the Cali du Sebh trying to draw the player in, since the whole point of the bargain it made is that you have to get to the end of the game and learn the truth.

[d34dn00b]

My read is that you called it up until the last two lines.

I think Amanda was definitely being abused by the father (PLENTY of implications and imagery to convey this), but he also forced them to roleplay and perform acts on eachother, and likely abused David directly himself (thinking about all the lines the monster says during the last fight, "I'm going to give you the seed too," and his main attacks & weapons...). This explains Lorelei's lines about roleplaying, the other glitched lines about roleplaying, and the reuse of the maid outfit. Amy is given "the seed" and then starts acting like Lorelei did earlier in the game, seducing Jack.

David dissociated through games (hiding) to avoid the reality of what was happening. The scene with Amy I think is a reenactment of what the father forced Amanda to do with David, but also representative of the compulsive sexuality/hypersexuality @superwriter mentioned in their comment that can manifest in victims of sexual abuse ("that's what you ALL want"--emphasis on all--her dad set the standard for how she's likely to view & relate to all men with a lifetime of sexual abuse). It could also be that David was twisted the way you suggest by the situation and/or the situation could have led to child-on-child sexual abuse absent the father's explicit coercion. (COCSA is terrible, and situations with toxic abusive/absentee parents tend to end up with the siblings being antagonist/abusive towards each other as well.)

David probably never knew how to process this, so on one hand you have the scene with Amy suggesting some kind of attraction/abuse as though he blamed his sister (Amy is literally assaulting Jack in the scene), but you also see that David seems to have an immature view on sexuality and a fixation with maids in this context (represented by Lorelei's character, her design, his blog post/fan art of said character, and the posters in his room at the end).

Absolutely tragic any way you look at it.

[superwriter]

Originally posted by d34dn00b:

My read is that you called it up until the last two lines.

I see two problems with this interpretation:

The first is that Frank's suicide letter only specifies the sins he committed against Amanda - there's no mention of directly hurting his son in any way. If he had forced David to participate in the abuse, wouldn't he have also expressed remorse about that?

The second is that Amanda's grievance with David seems entirely based on him setting the fire and hiding the truth. It seems to me that if he had taken part in the abuse, either she'd believe he did so willingly (which would be a far greater motivator to torment him than just covering it up), *or* she'd believe he was a victim too, in which case you'd expect she would have some small amount of sympathy for him. I think that if Amanda killed David (and Mark), it must be for the reason she said she did.

[d34dn00b]

Originally posted by superwriter:

Originally posted by d34dn00b:

My read is that you called it up until the last two lines.

I see two problems with this interpretation:

I mostly agree with you.

I mentioned the possibility of David participating in the abuse for the sake of considering the OP's point of view and not having anything to really discredit it, but my read is just that the father forced Amanda onto David in these "roleplaying" scenarios and so it was essentially forced COCSA. It's also true that child victims of SA will harm other children by reenacting what happened to them without understanding it, so it's possible either of the siblings harmed eachother in this way.

Regarding Frank's suicide note: Frank is clearly a deluded, abusive, manipulative piece of ♥♥♥♥. I don't think there's any reason to take his suicide note as a genuine expression of remorse. My read is that he only killed himself because he got Amanda pregnant, and he knew there was no way he could address that and also keep hiding the truth of what he was doing from the rest of the world.

Context suggests Frank is a narcissist. Manipulation, control, histrionics in the face of shame, dodging accountability, verbal abuse especially in the form of ridiculous judgements, delusions of grandeur—these are all traits/patterns in pathological narcissism, and you can see some of this in the Doctor (forgetting his name atm) too. "She's my daughter, I can do what I want with her"? The lines during the final boss of Frank shaming David for hiding from the abuse that he himself was perpetrating on Amanda?

Narcissists are people who are emotionally driven to protect their ego at all costs. They are incredibly insecure people who practically can't ever acknowledge their insecurities, and will use drastic measures to protect their egos. (This is part of why they are often ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥/violent.) Frank literally killed himself and his daughter to protect his ego. A remorseful person would perhaps not kill their daughter even if they wanted to die—maybe do something to help her recuperate/be in someone else's care after he died? Do the same for David—leave behind some cash, even? Do something to atone for what he did that would actually benefit someone else in some way?

Remember the Doctor's last line about "Atone for my sins" at the end of the dramatic glitched out suicide monologue? I think that was the goal in real life, too. His suicide note expresses remorse, but NONE of his actions do. I think the intent of the suicide note was to manipulate David into thinking he wasn't the monster he was, leaving him to shoulder the burden of the truth. Mentioning his direct abuse of David in the note would not suit his goal with the note.

Also, I didn't initially think Amanda killed David, but after thinking about it some more, I could see it either way. I think the article said cause of death was an OD. So my initial read was that he couldn't take finishing the game emotionally and did it himself, but it makes sense if she did with the game file being changed to "I'm sorry" just like the video of Mark's death.

[superwriter]

Originally posted by d34dn00b:

Regarding Frank's suicide note: Frank is clearly a deluded, abusive, manipulative piece of ♥♥♥♥. I don't think there's any reason to take his suicide note as a genuine expression of remorse. My read is that he only killed himself because he got Amanda pregnant, and he knew there was no way he could address that and also keep hiding the truth of what he was doing from the rest of the world.

To be clear, Frank's a monster, I'm not suggesting his remorse is in any way redemptive - I just don't think it's *feigned* in that moment. This is someone who was able to self-justify continuing to abuse his daughter after his wife's death; if that mental mechanism had remained intact, he would've fled after Amanda's death rather than even consider suicide. Death of the ego is not typically the first resort of the pathological narcissist.

The mere fact that he killed himself is sufficient evidence to suggest his letter and the sentiments it expresses are genuine. You read his stated concern for David as being manipulative, but again, narcissists are first and foremost self-serving - what would he stand to gain by admitting *everything* in the letter, and begging David not to become a monster too? How would that serve Frank's interests?

[d34dn00b]

Originally posted by superwriter:

To be clear, Frank's a monster, I'm not suggesting his remorse is in any way redemptive - I just don't think it's *feigned* in that moment. This is someone who was able to self-justify continuing to abuse his daughter after his wife's death; if that mental mechanism had remained intact, he would've fled after Amanda's death rather than even consider suicide. Death of the ego is not typically the first resort of the pathological narcissist.

The mere fact that he killed himself is sufficient evidence to suggest his letter and the sentiments it expresses are genuine. You read his stated concern for David as being manipulative, but again, narcissists are first and foremost self-serving - what would he stand to gain by admitting *everything* in the letter, and begging David not to become a monster too? How would that serve Frank's interests?

Late reply, been busy. Yeah, I don't think you're insinuating Frank was redeemed in any way. I see your point. I'm teasing out the details in my head. I think the thing for me is that it's hard to distinguish between a narcissist expressing genuine remorse from being forced to see themself in one of those rare moments of earnest self-reflection vs a narcissist performing remorse because they can't avoid getting away with something anymore. And those aren't mutually exclusive, either.

Narcissists are not necessarily devoid of empathy (like sociopaths)--I could maybe see Frank going on the run or whatever, but I agree with you that the cognitive dissonance was too overwhelming for him to keep on. I just don't think it necessarily means his drive to protect his ego was entirely shattered. I could similarly see it as a situation where he didn't think he could deal with the consequences regardless of what he did—maybe he felt it wasn't worth trying to run away and start a new life because of how damning his crimes would be to his former reputation, or because he knew it would follow him. The other side of narcs is that deep, hidden shame.

To your last few questions, I wouldn't put it past a Frank to have intended to protect his image in David's mind, and indirectly in the minds of others. Regardless of what degree to which he felt genuine remorse, I think that was the intent of the letter--a last ditch effort to protect his image after death, as David was obviously already aware of what he was doing. I also wouldn't say that he admitted "everything." That line regarding their mother felt very passive, and the "maybe" was rich. The begging would be the typical histrionics--narcs are not delusional about the bad things they do being bad, but about uniquely deserving or having good reasons to do so and still be viewed the way they want to. Very much the "do as I say, not as I do" type, the most heinous and also the staunchest moral police.

All that said, I'm mostly saying all this for the sake of discussion. I don't think your read is wrong, my perspective is just different, and I could see both being valid with the info in the game. Makes me wanna go through another playthrough and see how it appears through this lens.

[superwriter]

Originally posted by d34dn00b:

I think the thing for me is that it's hard to distinguish between a narcissist expressing genuine remorse from being forced to see themself in one of those rare moments of earnest self-reflection vs a narcissist performing remorse because they can't avoid getting away with something anymore. And those aren't mutually exclusive, either.[/spoiler]

There's also the added complication of the supernatural element - we don't know to what extent the Cali du Sebh was involved in what happened after Amanda made contact with it. We know its sigil was under her bed when she died, and that according to the dev what she asked for was for her story to be told; it's entirely possible the demon interpreted that desire as influencing Frank into murder/suicide so that the secret would be exposed.

[d34dn00b]

Originally posted by superwriter:

There's also the added complication of the supernatural element - we don't know to what extent the Cali du Sebh was involved in what happened after Amanda made contact with it. We know its sigil was under her bed when she died, and that according to the dev what she asked for was for her story to be told; it's entirely possible the demon interpreted that desire as influencing Frank into murder/suicide so that the secret would be exposed.

Great point! I think Cali du Sebh is definitely a demented "monkey's paw" flavor of wish-granter, operating with some sort of demon's rules but hellbent on exploiting them as best as possible to get what it wants (which appears to be souls, i.e. deaths, but it also seems to enjoy the pain and suffering of those that it takes in an It/Smile entity sort of way, if you've seen either of those). The same could apply to David's death, and could explain Amy's supernatural presence--the demon basically enlisting her as a poltergeist to make her do the work of getting her story out, meanwhile using the whole arrangement to farm more souls for itself through it's "game" within the game (...within the game).