Why South Korean games PVE die so fast

[PandaSav]

They have so much potential. Lost ark dead, The first descendant dead in a month, and next will it be Throne and Liberty?

[agentkido]

İlk olarak Hosenbund tarafından gönderildi:

It is mainly the insane grind + p2w combined with lazy content...

The only thing which korean games have going for them most of the time is good gameplay and nice graphics

but if everything else sucks and is worse than other existing games.. then why stay forever, we simply go back to our old games

almost all of these modern mmos, korean or not, also become a job in which you have to play dailies and weeklies over and over again.
it may be alright for a few weeks or even a few months depending on how much i like the game, but eventually it just feels like a job i have to attend to.
and im sorry, games are not supposed to feel like a job where i have to log on even though i dont want to play.

What else do you want from the game? It's either endgame grind or NG+ there really is no in between. And they can only pump out content so fast without people complaining that this guy is ahead of me or content is to slow I need more or I'll quit mentality.

[Kyutaru]

İlk olarak agentkido tarafından gönderildi:

What else do you want from the game? It's either endgame grind or NG+ there really is no in between. And they can only pump out content so fast without people complaining that this guy is ahead of me or content is to slow I need more or I'll quit mentality.

Dynamic content. Hasn't been given a fair shake yet but it involves a push and pull between catalyst conditions and the status quo. Adventurers exist to solve problems. Dynamic problems to solve have been successful in the games that feature them. The problem is that most games go the route of Guild Wars 2 or New World or RIFT and just give you events to take care of periodically for rewards. Few to none have aimed to create the feeling that DAOC or PlanetSide achieved. Sandbox MMOs have existed that claimed to do it but they just ended up monetizing in that direction to become pay to win or they cannibalized the community by rewarding too heavily players who pushed rather than pulled. EVE Online did a passable job at creating a living universe that was player run and player controlled with players eventually replacing all the NPC fortifications and hubs with superior ones of their own, but it had to hire a full time economist just to make that possible. On the horizon, only Ashes of Creation seems to be aiming to achieve anything similar, but only time will tell.

[agentkido]

İlk olarak Kyutaru tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak agentkido tarafından gönderildi:

What else do you want from the game? It's either endgame grind or NG+ there really is no in between. And they can only pump out content so fast without people complaining that this guy is ahead of me or content is to slow I need more or I'll quit mentality.

Dynamic content. Hasn't been given a fair shake yet but it involves a push and pull between catalyst conditions and the status quo. Adventurers exist to solve problems. Dynamic problems to solve have been successful in the games that feature them. The problem is that most games go the route of Guild Wars 2 or New World or RIFT and just give you events to take care of periodically for rewards. Few to none have aimed to create the feeling that DAOC or PlanetSide achieved. Sandbox MMOs have existed that claimed to do it but they just ended up monetizing in that direction to become pay to win or they cannibalized the community by rewarding too heavily players who pushed rather than pulled. EVE Online did a passable job at creating a living universe that was player run and player controlled with players eventually replacing all the NPC fortifications and hubs with superior ones of their own, but it had to hire a full time economist just to make that possible. On the horizon, only Ashes of Creation seems to be aiming to achieve anything similar, but only time will tell.

Dynamic content just seems like you want GW2 events all the time. Doesn't seem like anything new or even endgame worthy tbh.

EVE I've heard is just fight clan vs clan or buy stuff with real money, it sounds like star citizen but the PvP version of it.

Also if a free to play game exists ofc it's going to be monetized, how do you expect them to keep the servers running without making money somehow? Hell id even pay a monthly sub on a free game if it's good enough to deserve it.

I already know that ashes is gonna drop the ball the same way light and dark did back in the day, my expectations stay low so that I'm not disappointed when they don't measure up.

[Hosenbund]

İlk olarak agentkido tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Hosenbund tarafından gönderildi:

It is mainly the insane grind + p2w combined with lazy content...

The only thing which korean games have going for them most of the time is good gameplay and nice graphics

but if everything else sucks and is worse than other existing games.. then why stay forever, we simply go back to our old games

almost all of these modern mmos, korean or not, also become a job in which you have to play dailies and weeklies over and over again.
it may be alright for a few weeks or even a few months depending on how much i like the game, but eventually it just feels like a job i have to attend to.
and im sorry, games are not supposed to feel like a job where i have to log on even though i dont want to play.

What else do you want from the game? It's either endgame grind or NG+ there really is no in between. And they can only pump out content so fast without people complaining that this guy is ahead of me or content is to slow I need more or I'll quit mentality.

FF14 does not need these mechanics either, sure it has weeklies and dailies, but you dont really need to do the dailies much, and the weeklies are optional if you are into endgame raiding, and they dont take forever either. 1-2 months of raiding and you are done basically until new updates
they cut the chores down to a minimum

while in games like Lost Ark you need to play the same crap endlessly every week and almost every day to keep up

i personally dont mind grind itself, but it has to be like warframe, without timegating for the most part, i hate dailies and weeklies

games should be designed to keep you around because you have fun, not because you have to work off a checklist every day and week

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

Ofcourse i cant speak for all of the,,western people'',but my issue with most asian mmo,s is that they tend to be needlessly grindy in places that arent needed.
I dont mind working for my stuff,but i want it to be interesting at least,with a nice story or new enemies/harder difficulty.

Then there are all those various currencies,you have tab after tab for doing this daily and that daily,then you get an event mission done here,an achievement there,and then you end up clicking trough all those red dots that shower you with rewards.
I dont know whats the deal with that,for me its just immersion breaking and annoying.

Cash shop.
Games gotta make money,yes,but more often then not,those kind of games feature p2w,or also,,pay to progress''
(which is basically p2w,but with a different name to make it sound better)

Gender locked classes.
NO,thank you

Oversexualized characters.
Im no prude by any means,but having models walk around in high heels while lifting a sword thats twice as big as they are.....yea no,im not buying it.
And the fact that asian mmo,s often add bikini sets or silly bear costumes,doesnt help with the immersion issue either.

Story.
Take black desert for example.
Coming from ESO with a fully voiced story in different languages,aswell as multiple choices for finishing quests,to BDO,was just horrible.
Characters talking gibberish about things you dont care about while constantly looping trough the same rapid body movements to advance a linear story.
_______________________________________________________


So yea...im not saying throne and liberty will be like that,but theres a good chance that it will feature at least some of those things i mentioned.
While one cant just generalize and put asians or western people into ONE specific category,it IS true that generally speaking,we do have different preferences when it comes to videogames.
The biggest difference is how we view an mmo,s cash shop and repetive grind.

[Chiryuu]

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

Ofcourse i cant speak for all of the,,western people'',but my issue with most asian mmo,s is that they tend to be needlessly grindy in places that arent needed.
I dont mind working for my stuff,but i want it to be interesting at least,with a nice story or new enemies/harder difficulty.

Then there are all those various currencies,you have tab after tab for doing this daily and that daily,then you get an event mission done here,an achievement there,and then you end up clicking trough all those red dots that shower you with rewards.
I dont know whats the deal with that,for me its just immersion breaking and annoying.

Cash shop.
Games gotta make money,yes,but more often then not,those kind of games feature p2w,or also,,pay to progress''
(which is basically p2w,but with a different name to make it sound better)

Gender locked classes.
NO,thank you

Oversexualized characters.
Im no prude by any means,but having models walk around in high heels while lifting a sword thats twice as big as they are.....yea no,im not buying it.
And the fact that asian mmo,s often add bikini sets or silly bear costumes,doesnt help with the immersion issue either.

Story.
Take black desert for example.
Coming from ESO with a fully voiced story in different languages,to BDO,was just horrible.
Characters talking gibberish about things you dont care about while constantly looping trough the same rapid body movements.
_______________________________________________________


So yea...im not saying throne and liberty will be like that,but theres at least a good chance that it will feature at least some of those things i mentioned.
While one cant just generalize and put asians or western people into ONE specific category,it IS true that generally speaking,we do have different preferences when it comes to videogames.
The biggest difference is how we view an mmo,s cash shop and repetive grind.

1. Cash shop is everywhere, no matter if game is b2p, f2p or sub
2. TL doesn't have classes
3. I don't like oversexualization but tbh there is quite a lot of ppl that like it
4. You picked one of the worst games if you want to talk about story (BDO) and compared with a game that focuses on story. Don't think it's in any way fair comparison. TL afaik has pretty nice story.

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

Ofcourse i cant speak for all of the,,western people'',but my issue with most asian mmo,s is that they tend to be needlessly grindy in places that arent needed.
I dont mind working for my stuff,but i want it to be interesting at least,with a nice story or new enemies/harder difficulty.

Then there are all those various currencies,you have tab after tab for doing this daily and that daily,then you get an event mission done here,an achievement there,and then you end up clicking trough all those red dots that shower you with rewards.
I dont know whats the deal with that,for me its just immersion breaking and annoying.

Cash shop.
Games gotta make money,yes,but more often then not,those kind of games feature p2w,or also,,pay to progress''
(which is basically p2w,but with a different name to make it sound better)

Gender locked classes.
NO,thank you

Oversexualized characters.
Im no prude by any means,but having models walk around in high heels while lifting a sword thats twice as big as they are.....yea no,im not buying it.
And the fact that asian mmo,s often add bikini sets or silly bear costumes,doesnt help with the immersion issue either.

Story.
Take black desert for example.
Coming from ESO with a fully voiced story in different languages,to BDO,was just horrible.
Characters talking gibberish about things you dont care about while constantly looping trough the same rapid body movements.
_______________________________________________________


So yea...im not saying throne and liberty will be like that,but theres at least a good chance that it will feature at least some of those things i mentioned.
While one cant just generalize and put asians or western people into ONE specific category,it IS true that generally speaking,we do have different preferences when it comes to videogames.
The biggest difference is how we view an mmo,s cash shop and repetive grind.

1. Cash shop is everywhere, no matter if game is b2p, f2p or sub
2. TL doesn't have classes
3. I don't like oversexualization but tbh there is quite a lot of ppl that like it
4. You picked one of the worst games if you want to talk about story (BDO) and compared with a game that focuses on story. Don't think it's in any way fair comparison. TL afaik has pretty nice story.

Yes cash shop is everywhere,but if you compare a shop like gw2,s with some of the asian cash shops out there,you will notice a huge difference.

As for the story,i could also pick shaiya,rappelz,last chaos,flyff,or to mention some newer ones,lost ark and archeage.
Wow is about 20 years old by now but i still love to read trough the quests and the lore of various characters or factions in the game,cant say the same for any of the mmo,s i mentioned here.
GW2 also does a very good job at storytelling,you also get to make your own choices from time to time.

As for the rest,it was just what i dislike about most asian mmo,s out there.
Didnt say TL will be this way,but many of them are.

EDIT: I heard final fantasy online is pretty good when it comes to storytelling,but i didnt really play it that much.
Other than ff online though,i cant recall any asian mmo with decent story and immersion.

[Chiryuu]

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

1. Cash shop is everywhere, no matter if game is b2p, f2p or sub
2. TL doesn't have classes
3. I don't like oversexualization but tbh there is quite a lot of ppl that like it
4. You picked one of the worst games if you want to talk about story (BDO) and compared with a game that focuses on story. Don't think it's in any way fair comparison. TL afaik has pretty nice story.

Yes cash shop is everywhere,but if you compare a shop like gw2,s with some of the asian cash shops out there,you will notice a huge difference.

As for the story,i could also pick shaiya,rappelz,last chaos,flyff,or to mention some newer ones,lost ark and archeage.
Wow is about 20 years old by now but i still love to read trough the quests and the lore of various characters or factions in the game,cant say the same for any of the mmo,s i mentioned here.

As for the rest,it was just what i dislike about most asian mmo,s out there.
Didnt say TL will be this way,but many of them are.

Cash shop in gw2 is exactly same, the difference is that in GW2 there is almost no vertical progression. That's the only difference.

WoW... don't even start me ranting. It's one of the worst games I havbe ever seen. Yes I know, ppl like it, me not.
Lost Ark story wise is so-so, it's not good but it's not super bad, Depends what you like too.

[Hosenbund]

Ah yes.. the Korean p2w mmo addicts arguing once again that every game is the same.

It is a timeless classic.
It reveals how addicted they are to predatory p2w games.
If they didnt perform mental gymnastics like these, then they would have to admit they are playing bad games

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

Yes cash shop is everywhere,but if you compare a shop like gw2,s with some of the asian cash shops out there,you will notice a huge difference.

As for the story,i could also pick shaiya,rappelz,last chaos,flyff,or to mention some newer ones,lost ark and archeage.
Wow is about 20 years old by now but i still love to read trough the quests and the lore of various characters or factions in the game,cant say the same for any of the mmo,s i mentioned here.

As for the rest,it was just what i dislike about most asian mmo,s out there.
Didnt say TL will be this way,but many of them are.

Cash shop in gw2 is exactly same, the difference is that in GW2 there is almost no vertical progression. That's the only difference.

WoW... don't even start me ranting. It's one of the worst games I havbe ever seen. Yes I know, ppl like it, me not.
Lost Ark story wise is so-so, it's not good but it's not super bad, Depends what you like too.

The same?
I wouldnt say that,asian cash shops often feature upgrade packs to refine weapons or armor,or some gacha crap for a skin,give you a p2w advantage or let you skip important stuff,or they lure you in with what they call,,top up''rewards to make you spend more.
Then there are all those silly costumes shaped like animals,school uniforms,bikinis and things like that....
Yea im aware that gw2 isnt that great when it comes to such costumes,but lost arks costumes are far,far worse.

PS: Not sure what you dislike about wow.
I get its not everyones type of game,just curious.

[Chiryuu]

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

Cash shop in gw2 is exactly same, the difference is that in GW2 there is almost no vertical progression. That's the only difference.

WoW... don't even start me ranting. It's one of the worst games I havbe ever seen. Yes I know, ppl like it, me not.
Lost Ark story wise is so-so, it's not good but it's not super bad, Depends what you like too.

The same?
I wouldnt say that,asian cash shops often feature upgrade packs to refine weapons or armor,or some gacha crap for a skin,give you a p2w advantage or let you skip important stuff,or they lure you in with what they call,,top up''rewards to make you spend more.
Then there are all those silly costumes shaped like animals,school uniforms,bikinis and things like that....
Yea im aware that gw2 isnt that great when it comes to such costumes,but lost arks costumes are far,far worse.

Again, the difference is how the game progress is constructed not how the cash shop is constructed.

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

The same?
I wouldnt say that,asian cash shops often feature upgrade packs to refine weapons or armor,or some gacha crap for a skin,give you a p2w advantage or let you skip important stuff,or they lure you in with what they call,,top up''rewards to make you spend more.
Then there are all those silly costumes shaped like animals,school uniforms,bikinis and things like that....
Yea im aware that gw2 isnt that great when it comes to such costumes,but lost arks costumes are far,far worse.

Again, the difference is how the game progress is constructed not how the cash shop is constructed.

The cash shop is directly tied to this progression though so it is important.
All in all,their itemshop is really fair even for people who dont spend much,or nothing at all.
They keep immersion breaking stuff to a certain minimum (sometimes...),and you arent being asked at every corner to spend money on this,that,here,and there,become vip lvl 1,2,3 and buy premium aswell as a new pack of gacha lootboxes and and and....
Many asian mmo,s are so in-your-face with pop ups and all that crap.

There are way more differences than just,,how the game progress is constructed''

[Chiryuu]

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

Again, the difference is how the game progress is constructed not how the cash shop is constructed.

The cash shop is directly tied to this progression though so it is important.
All in all,their itemshop is really fair even for people who dont spend much,or nothing at all.
They keep immersion breaking stuff to a certain minimum (sometimes...),and you arent being asked at every corner to spend money on this,that,here,and there,become vip lvl 1,2,3 and buy premium aswell as a new pack of gacha lootboxes and and and....
Many asian mmo,s are so in-your-face with pop ups and all that crap.

There are way more differences than just,,how the game progress is constructed''

I wouldnt personally say it's fair, especially considering it's b2p game.
Did you know that if you don't pay in cash shop, you can't have access to very convenient, almost neccesary, gathering tools and salvage tool?

Is it p2w? Depends how you define p2w, for me it's not p2w, but it's SUPER inconvenient to not have it.
It's creating problems to sell solutions.

[Sir Seal The Slippery]

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

The cash shop is directly tied to this progression though so it is important.
All in all,their itemshop is really fair even for people who dont spend much,or nothing at all.
They keep immersion breaking stuff to a certain minimum (sometimes...),and you arent being asked at every corner to spend money on this,that,here,and there,become vip lvl 1,2,3 and buy premium aswell as a new pack of gacha lootboxes and and and....
Many asian mmo,s are so in-your-face with pop ups and all that crap.

There are way more differences than just,,how the game progress is constructed''

I wouldnt personally say it's fair, especially considering it's b2p game.
Did you know that if you don't pay, you can't have access to very convenient, almost neccesary, gathering tools and salvage tool?

Is it p2w? Depends how you define p2w, for me it's not p2w, but it's SUPER inconvenient to not have it.
It's creating problems to sell solutions.

Yes im aware of those things,have infinite gathering tools and the salvage machine myself.
Is it important to have those?
Well,not really.
You can get gathering tools from other sources,and you can also buy kits to salvage items if you want,you dont need to pay real money.
Actually,you could even ignore crafting completely and you can get trough all the story stuff just fine.
And if you really wanted those things....its still possible to farm gold to buy gems,to buy what you want in the itemshop.

This is nothing compared to asian mmo,s that sell you a 1 euro top up deal,just to then lure you in with a 2 step pack that costs 10 euro,and the next one 30 euro.
Or how devs prey on peoples gambling addictions with gacha boxes where you spend 100 euro just to get the ONE item you actually wanted.
Or the all time favorite: Scrolls that protect your gear from failed upgrade attempts!
Or even better: VIP lvl 5,that gives you a permanent boost to attack and defense!

Ive seen my fair share of asian cash shops,and i try to avoid them as best as i can.
Id take a sub or b2p model over this any day,thank you.

[Chiryuu]

İlk olarak Sir Seal The Slippery tarafından gönderildi:

İlk olarak Chiryuu tarafından gönderildi:

I wouldnt personally say it's fair, especially considering it's b2p game.
Did you know that if you don't pay, you can't have access to very convenient, almost neccesary, gathering tools and salvage tool?

Is it p2w? Depends how you define p2w, for me it's not p2w, but it's SUPER inconvenient to not have it.
It's creating problems to sell solutions.

Yes im aware of those things,have infinite gathering tools and the salvage machine myself.
Is it important to have those?
Well,not really.
You can get gathering tools from other sources,and you can also buy kits to salvage items if you want,you dont need to pay real money.
Actually,you could even ignore crafting completely and you can get trough all the story stuff just fine.
And if you really wanted those things....its still possible to farm gold to buy gems,to buy what you want in the itemshop.

This is nothing compared to asian mmo,s that sell you a 1 euro top up deal,just to then lure you in with a 2 step pack that costs 10 euro,and the next one 30 euro.
Or how devs prey on peoples gambling addictions with gacha boxes where you spend 100 euro just to get the ONE item you actually wanted.
Or the all time favorite: Scrolls that protect your gear from failed upgrade attempts!
Or even better: VIP lvl 5,that gives you a permanent boost to attack and defense!

Ive seen my fair share of asian cash shops,and i try to avoid them as best as i can.
Id take a sub or b2p model over this any day,thank you.

Did you know that not all and I would even say minority of asian mmorpg (actually I dont know single one :D) that we have access to have things that you talked about included in their cash shops?