Another flop or...

[DRUIDER]

Is there:

- Vast open world with sandbox elements and not bottlenecked map design?
- Land owning
- Housing / building and design it how you feel
- Randomized elements enough, including mob. encounters and the loot
- Economy
- Challenging and slow progress
- Balanced and skill based PvP

...I doubt. Without these fundamental things which were mostly all of them introduced over 20 years ago in MMORPG, this should be not done.

[Menzagitat]

Originally posted by xtcsniper21:

yes it will be a flop in the west, if only because they want to use the same ♥♥♥♥♥♥ monetization as in korea (i.e. sell everything with real money) f2p players and players who invest less will never have a chance, and at a certain point it will be like in korea that as a f2p or as a player who puts in little money you will no longer be taken along in any group. I played korea version ~200h and I can say the game is extreme p2w. You don't even have to try PVP as a F2p player, you just get mowed down. Guilds that put in massive amounts of money will dominate servers. You will hardly be able to upgrade equipment as a F2p player. On the other hand, players who put in money will be able to upgrade very quickly.

and i'm not even getting to the auction house yet, as a f2p player you will rarely be able to buy anything, because you have to buy the currency or sell items (you can't sell every item, only a handful) and they are hardly worth anything. people like to compare it to lost ark ( it would be less p2w than lost ark ) that's not true, in lost ark you can easily be ranked number 1 as a f2p player. ( why? you can't buy advantages in pvp in lost ark) T&L is different put money into it and you win easily :=)

Valuable information.
`Thanks.

[EMO GANGSTER]

Originally posted by ele:

Originally posted by Dovah:

One word: Amazon

This is the only word that matters. NCSOFT is the second, which is just as bad. Their only decent games were City of Heroes and Blade and Soul, neither of which got global releases.

Lineage 2 was good though I played before the p2w was added and it had a sub

[[ELY] Epicdemic]

This game will flop because it's just another ♥♥♥♥♥♥ p2w mobile game. Oops wrong thread I thought I was in Tarisland discussion.

[Atlantus]

I don't have any great expectations, but I will test it and form my own opinion.
I won't be spending any money, though, as P2W is already confirmed

[Lee]

Originally posted by xtcsniper21:

yes it will be a flop in the west, if only because they want to use the same ♥♥♥♥♥♥ monetization as in korea (i.e. sell everything with real money) f2p players and players who invest less will never have a chance, and at a certain point it will be like in korea that as a f2p or as a player who puts in little money you will no longer be taken along in any group. I played korea version ~200h and I can say the game is extreme p2w. You don't even have to try PVP as a F2p player, you just get mowed down. Guilds that put in massive amounts of money will dominate servers. You will hardly be able to upgrade equipment as a F2p player. On the other hand, players who put in money will be able to upgrade very quickly.

and i'm not even getting to the auction house yet, as a f2p player you will rarely be able to buy anything, because you have to buy the currency or sell items (you can't sell every item, only a handful) and they are hardly worth anything. people like to compare it to lost ark ( it would be less p2w than lost ark ) that's not true, in lost ark you can easily be ranked number 1 as a f2p player. ( why? you can't buy advantages in pvp in lost ark) T&L is different put money into it and you win easily :=)

Imagine playing a F2P game / investing your time and being so disgruntled not to spend a penny when the P2W has been down scaled significantly since KR launch.

Imagine listening to everyone crying P2W with no game / purchase experience and discrediting the game as opposed to people who have played since KR launch and spent no more than a full priced game.

[Lee]

Dont listen to every disgruntled non experienced TL player who wants to slate the game. Play it for yourself and set yourself a budget.

Majority of people on KR didnt spend a penny and was in top 10 guilds.

[Atlantus]

Originally posted by Diz:

Originally posted by xtcsniper21:

yes it will be a flop in the west, if only because they want to use the same ♥♥♥♥♥♥ monetization as in korea (i.e. sell everything with real money) f2p players and players who invest less will never have a chance, and at a certain point it will be like in korea that as a f2p or as a player who puts in little money you will no longer be taken along in any group. I played korea version ~200h and I can say the game is extreme p2w. You don't even have to try PVP as a F2p player, you just get mowed down. Guilds that put in massive amounts of money will dominate servers. You will hardly be able to upgrade equipment as a F2p player. On the other hand, players who put in money will be able to upgrade very quickly.

and i'm not even getting to the auction house yet, as a f2p player you will rarely be able to buy anything, because you have to buy the currency or sell items (you can't sell every item, only a handful) and they are hardly worth anything. people like to compare it to lost ark ( it would be less p2w than lost ark ) that's not true, in lost ark you can easily be ranked number 1 as a f2p player. ( why? you can't buy advantages in pvp in lost ark) T&L is different put money into it and you win easily :=)

Imagine playing a F2P game / investing your time and being so disgruntled not to spend a penny when the P2W has been down scaled significantly since KR launch.

Imagine listening to everyone crying P2W with no game / purchase experience and discrediting the game as opposed to people who have played since KR launch and spent no more than a full priced game.

Then you still spent money on a P2W game and you are part of the problem with the current microtransactions. (Pay2Progress and Pay2Convenience is also Pay2Win, saving time, making faster progress = Pay2Win, that's a fact).

Give me skins or other things that have NO influence on the game (no stats, no movement speed, no money etc.) where is the problem to develop an MMO where EVERYONE has the same chances WITHOUT spending money?
I also bought skins in League of Legends back when LoL wasn't mainstream yet to support the developers back then!

You seem to understand the reprehensibility of developing an MMO that is all about "milking" the players and not offering any value in terms of "game fun".
Because that is currently, unfortunately, the standard in the MMO market.

MMO's are hyped to attract a lot of people who spend money and then the MMO is often simply dropped

[||||||||||||||||||||]

Amazon Game Studio + Korean MMO + Pay To Win = Dead game

[Ezenkrul]

Originally posted by Atlantus:

Originally posted by Diz:

Imagine playing a F2P game / investing your time and being so disgruntled not to spend a penny when the P2W has been down scaled significantly since KR launch.

Imagine listening to everyone crying P2W with no game / purchase experience and discrediting the game as opposed to people who have played since KR launch and spent no more than a full priced game.

Then you still spent money on a P2W game and you are part of the problem with the current microtransactions. (Pay2Progress and Pay2Convenience is also Pay2Win, saving time, making faster progress = Pay2Win, that's a fact).

Give me skins or other things that have NO influence on the game (no stats, no movement speed, no money etc.) where is the problem to develop an MMO where EVERYONE has the same chances WITHOUT spending money?
I also bought skins in League of Legends back when LoL wasn't mainstream yet to support the developers back then!

You seem to understand the reprehensibility of developing an MMO that is all about "milking" the players and not offering any value in terms of "game fun".
Because that is currently, unfortunately, the standard in the MMO market.

MMO's are hyped to attract a lot of people who spend money and then the MMO is often simply dropped

But who won't have the same chances. Some people can play more than you, some people are luckier than you and some people have a better group of friends and can progress faster. ( even have more knowledge. ) With your logic they should also start limiting the amount of time you can play, force equal groups or make it a solo only online game, get rid of all rng etc.
That does not sound like an MMO to me, personally.

[Atlantus]

Originally posted by Ezenkrul:

Originally posted by Atlantus:

Then you still spent money on a P2W game and you are part of the problem with the current microtransactions. (Pay2Progress and Pay2Convenience is also Pay2Win, saving time, making faster progress = Pay2Win, that's a fact).

Give me skins or other things that have NO influence on the game (no stats, no movement speed, no money etc.) where is the problem to develop an MMO where EVERYONE has the same chances WITHOUT spending money?
I also bought skins in League of Legends back when LoL wasn't mainstream yet to support the developers back then!

You seem to understand the reprehensibility of developing an MMO that is all about "milking" the players and not offering any value in terms of "game fun".
Because that is currently, unfortunately, the standard in the MMO market.

MMO's are hyped to attract a lot of people who spend money and then the MMO is often simply dropped

But who won't have the same chances. Some people can play more than you, some people are luckier than you and some people have a better group of friends and can progress faster. ( even have more knowledge. ) With your logic they should also start limiting the amount of time you can play, force equal groups or make it a solo only online game, get rid of all rng etc.
That does not sound like an MMO to me, personally.

EVERYONE can organize their free time as they see fit, if you don't want to invest time, an MMO is not for you, because a certain grind is part of it.
Luck is a factor that nobody can influence and that you shouldn't influence in-game, especially not by spending money!
You can also choose your own "group/clan/community" depending on your ambitions - if you want to tryhard -> progress guild, if you just want to have fun -> casual guild.
If I'm already in a group of people, they usually have the same ambitions (raid, PvP, casual, achievements, etc . . .).

But these are all things that should NOT be dependent on MONEY.
If guilds/groups get together and the factor is whether you spend money because you can then keep up with progress, that is WRONG!

Your progress and the progress of other players should NOT be dependent on money.
The idea of "I want to do nothing and still be the best" is not sustainable for an MMO or other games and buying your way up with money only makes the gaming experience worse for ALL players.
We don't live in Korea where P2W is the norm and it shouldn't become the norm.

[Ezenkrul]

Originally posted by Atlantus:

Originally posted by Ezenkrul:

But who won't have the same chances. Some people can play more than you, some people are luckier than you and some people have a better group of friends and can progress faster. ( even have more knowledge. ) With your logic they should also start limiting the amount of time you can play, force equal groups or make it a solo only online game, get rid of all rng etc.
That does not sound like an MMO to me, personally.

EVERYONE can organize their free time as they see fit, if you don't want to invest time, an MMO is not for you, because a certain grind is part of it.
Luck is a factor that nobody can influence and that you shouldn't influence in-game, especially not by spending money!
You can also choose your own "group/clan/community" depending on your ambitions - if you want to tryhard -> progress guild, if you just want to have fun -> casual guild.
If I'm already in a group of people, they usually have the same ambitions (raid, PvP, casual, achievements, etc . . .).

But these are all things that should NOT be dependent on MONEY.
If guilds/groups get together and the factor is whether you spend money because you can then keep up with progress, that is WRONG!

Your progress and the progress of other players should NOT be dependent on money.
The idea of "I want to do nothing and still be the best" is not sustainable for an MMO or other games and buying your way up with money only makes the gaming experience worse for ALL players.
We don't live in Korea where P2W is the norm and it shouldn't become the norm.

That is the thing though. Games are for everyone, not just the no lifers who can spend 10 hours a day on them.

Do you feel it is wrong because you cannot spend the money? Can you spend 10 hours a day playing a video game?

You are also not forced to play a game or spend money on it. Some games give the option to spend cash. It is also NOT wrong, it is just another option. Some people can just spend more than others just like some people can play more than others. At the end of the day, it is just a video game.

Now I do think that some pay 2 win goes too far but in regards to TnL it is not that bad and I highly doubt it is going away. The biggest "issue" with TnL is the lucent currency but even then, you will not see that many items on the market at first due to limitations and even then they'll be expensive. You will still need skill and a good group to make a lot of progress even if you swipe a lot.

[Atlantus]

Originally posted by Ezenkrul:

Originally posted by Atlantus:

EVERYONE can organize their free time as they see fit, if you don't want to invest time, an MMO is not for you, because a certain grind is part of it.
Luck is a factor that nobody can influence and that you shouldn't influence in-game, especially not by spending money!
You can also choose your own "group/clan/community" depending on your ambitions - if you want to tryhard -> progress guild, if you just want to have fun -> casual guild.
If I'm already in a group of people, they usually have the same ambitions (raid, PvP, casual, achievements, etc . . .).

But these are all things that should NOT be dependent on MONEY.
If guilds/groups get together and the factor is whether you spend money because you can then keep up with progress, that is WRONG!

Your progress and the progress of other players should NOT be dependent on money.
The idea of "I want to do nothing and still be the best" is not sustainable for an MMO or other games and buying your way up with money only makes the gaming experience worse for ALL players.
We don't live in Korea where P2W is the norm and it shouldn't become the norm.

That is the thing though. Games are for everyone, not just the no lifers who can spend 10 hours a day on them.

Do you feel it is wrong because you cannot spend the money? Can you spend 10 hours a day playing a video game?

You are also not forced to play a game or spend money on it. Some games give the option to spend cash. It is also NOT wrong, it is just another option. Some people can just spend more than others just like some people can play more than others. At the end of the day, it is just a video game.

Now I do think that some pay 2 win goes too far but in regards to TnL it is not that bad and I highly doubt it is going away. The biggest "issue" with TnL is the lucent currency but even then, you will not see that many items on the market at first due to limitations and even then they'll be expensive. You will still need skill and a good group to make a lot of progress even if you swipe a lot.

I don't know how much you work, but in Germany an 8-hour job is the norm (not including the return journey), so everything you do in your free time is up to you.
Do you prefer to go to the gym? That's fine, nobody is saying anything against it, it's even good to do something for your body, but it's free time you'd rather spend doing something else.
So where does the claim come from that you can keep up with people (if you can spend money) who sacrifice their free time for their progress?
Time is worth more than money!
You usually get money as a monthly salary, but you don't get any time in return.

Who is talking about being forced to do this?
It's very simple psychology that's being used here.
"You want to play as high up as possible? Then spend money to accelerate your progress".
"Oh, farming takes too long for you? Here, 20 euros and you have a better chance of dropping"
"Leveling takes too long for you? Buy a character upgrade/EXP boost"
Psychology has long been used to trivialize P2W.
"It's not Pay2Win if I get something faster that THEORETICALLY anyone can get".

You buy yourself an advantage = Pay2Win.
The only question is how much it is P2W, as there are of course gradations, but it is and remains Pay2Win

[Ezenkrul]

Originally posted by Atlantus:

Originally posted by Ezenkrul:

That is the thing though. Games are for everyone, not just the no lifers who can spend 10 hours a day on them.

Do you feel it is wrong because you cannot spend the money? Can you spend 10 hours a day playing a video game?

You are also not forced to play a game or spend money on it. Some games give the option to spend cash. It is also NOT wrong, it is just another option. Some people can just spend more than others just like some people can play more than others. At the end of the day, it is just a video game.

Now I do think that some pay 2 win goes too far but in regards to TnL it is not that bad and I highly doubt it is going away. The biggest "issue" with TnL is the lucent currency but even then, you will not see that many items on the market at first due to limitations and even then they'll be expensive. You will still need skill and a good group to make a lot of progress even if you swipe a lot.

I don't know how much you work, but in Germany an 8-hour job is the norm (not including the return journey), so everything you do in your free time is up to you.
Do you prefer to go to the gym? That's fine, nobody is saying anything against it, it's even good to do something for your body, but it's free time you'd rather spend doing something else.
So where does the claim come from that you can keep up with people (if you can spend money) who sacrifice their free time for their progress?
Time is worth more than money!
You usually get money as a monthly salary, but you don't get any time in return.

Who is talking about being forced to do this?
It's very simple psychology that's being used here.
"You want to play as high up as possible? Then spend money to accelerate your progress".
"Oh, farming takes too long for you? Here, 20 euros and you have a better chance of dropping"
"Leveling takes too long for you? Buy a character upgrade/EXP boost"
Psychology has long been used to trivialize P2W.
"It's not Pay2Win if I get something faster that THEORETICALLY anyone can get".

You buy yourself an advantage = Pay2Win.
The only question is how much it is P2W, as there are of course gradations, but it is and remains Pay2Win

I am retired. So I have plenty of free time to play video games and plenty of cash to spend on them. Video gaming is just 1 of my hobbies. I do not want to spend 10 hours a day on a game nor do I want to spend 1000s..though I will spent what I want. I will play a game until I am not having fun anymore whatever that reason be. If I can swipe to give me a little more of boost or better luck then I definitely will.

Why should someone who spends more time benefit over someone who can spend more money? Shouldn't both be possible? If you choose to play 10 hours a day and spend zero how is that any different than me playing 4 hours a day and spending money to act as if I am playing 10 hours a day? For me at least pay to win is pay to win but there are different degrees of it and winning? Meh. I just pay for convenience. I know I won't always win even if I swipe a lot. There is usually going to be someone better or willing to pour more into a game than I am ( and most people. )

If you don't want to play p2w games then don't. Asking games to change to your ideals is just stupid. Money speaks way louder. Yes this game might "fail" but hey if I have fun for a few months, I am fine with that. I will move onto the next game and the next thing I have going on in real life.

[Atlantus]

Originally posted by Ezenkrul:

Originally posted by Atlantus:

I don't know how much you work, but in Germany an 8-hour job is the norm (not including the return journey), so everything you do in your free time is up to you.
Do you prefer to go to the gym? That's fine, nobody is saying anything against it, it's even good to do something for your body, but it's free time you'd rather spend doing something else.
So where does the claim come from that you can keep up with people (if you can spend money) who sacrifice their free time for their progress?
Time is worth more than money!
You usually get money as a monthly salary, but you don't get any time in return.

Who is talking about being forced to do this?
It's very simple psychology that's being used here.
"You want to play as high up as possible? Then spend money to accelerate your progress".
"Oh, farming takes too long for you? Here, 20 euros and you have a better chance of dropping"
"Leveling takes too long for you? Buy a character upgrade/EXP boost"
Psychology has long been used to trivialize P2W.
"It's not Pay2Win if I get something faster that THEORETICALLY anyone can get".

You buy yourself an advantage = Pay2Win.
The only question is how much it is P2W, as there are of course gradations, but it is and remains Pay2Win

I am retired. So I have plenty of free time to play video games and plenty of cash to spend on them. Video gaming is just 1 of my hobbies. I do not want to spend 10 hours a day on a game nor do I want to spend 1000s..though I will spent what I want. I will play a game until I am not having fun anymore whatever that reason be. If I can swipe to give me a little more of boost or better luck then I definitely will.

Why should someone who spends more time benefit over someone who can spend more money? Shouldn't both be possible? If you choose to play 10 hours a day and spend zero how is that any different than me playing 4 hours a day and spending money to act as if I am playing 10 hours a day? For me at least pay to win is pay to win but there are different degrees of it and winning? Meh. I just pay for convenience. I know I won't always win even if I swipe a lot. There is usually going to be someone better or willing to pour more into a game than I am ( and most people. )

If you don't want to play p2w games then don't. Asking games to change to your ideals is just stupid. Money speaks way louder. Yes this game might "fail" but hey if I have fun for a few months, I am fine with that. I will move onto the next game and the next thing I have going on in real life.

" If I can swipe to give me a little more of boost or better luck then I definitely will."
As already mentioned, you are part of the problem.
Time is worth more than money, someone who is retired should understand that.

And as I've said before, MMO's REQUIRE you to grind.
That's what these games are built on, to remove or facilitate this concept with money destroys the whole game concept!

You don't seem to want to play a game the way it was/is meant to be played and (apparently) want to make it easier for yourself.
Then don't play such games and don't support the publishers' greed for money even more, thereby destroying the fun of the game for others.
You don't seem to have noticed that many newer MMOs fail because they contain P2W, why do you think that is?

Because gamers don't want a P2W MMO.
That's why most MMO's don't survive their initial hype

[Ezenkrul]

Originally posted by Atlantus:

Originally posted by Ezenkrul:

I am retired. So I have plenty of free time to play video games and plenty of cash to spend on them. Video gaming is just 1 of my hobbies. I do not want to spend 10 hours a day on a game nor do I want to spend 1000s..though I will spent what I want. I will play a game until I am not having fun anymore whatever that reason be. If I can swipe to give me a little more of boost or better luck then I definitely will.

Why should someone who spends more time benefit over someone who can spend more money? Shouldn't both be possible? If you choose to play 10 hours a day and spend zero how is that any different than me playing 4 hours a day and spending money to act as if I am playing 10 hours a day? For me at least pay to win is pay to win but there are different degrees of it and winning? Meh. I just pay for convenience. I know I won't always win even if I swipe a lot. There is usually going to be someone better or willing to pour more into a game than I am ( and most people. )

If you don't want to play p2w games then don't. Asking games to change to your ideals is just stupid. Money speaks way louder. Yes this game might "fail" but hey if I have fun for a few months, I am fine with that. I will move onto the next game and the next thing I have going on in real life.

" If I can swipe to give me a little more of boost or better luck then I definitely will."
As already mentioned, you are part of the problem.
Time is worth more than money, someone who is retired should understand that.

And as I've said before, MMO's REQUIRE you to grind.
That's what these games are built on, to remove or facilitate this concept with money destroys the whole game concept!

You don't seem to want to play a game the way it was/is meant to be played and (apparently) want to make it easier for yourself.
Then don't play such games and don't support the publishers' greed for money even more, thereby destroying the fun of the game for others.
You don't seem to have noticed that many newer MMOs fail because they contain P2W, why do you think that is?

Because gamers don't want a P2W MMO.
That's why most MMO's don't survive their initial hype

Time is definitely worth more than money. Thus why I do not have a problem if spending money to speed things up. ( and actually giving the that option to spend money allows other people who cannot play 10 hours a day but dont mind spending some money on the game a leg up. )

MMOs are failing for many reasons and the grind is actually one of the reasons. People now a days want instant gratification and do not want to spend 10 hours a day grinding for something especially when rng is involved. For the most part because of course there is still the crowd that enjoys it.

Luckily I am fine with being the problem for you because I do not see a problem with it. I game for me, not for others. I like to play MMOs and I do play them and I do swipe when I want. Most gamers do not like pay to win because gamers like to win and most people cannot afford to swipe. I mean gees, I am in gaming groups where people can barely afford a 60 dollar game XD The one thing most gamers seem to have more of is time and their willingness to pour a lot of it into a game.

TnL will have a cash shop and it will have pay to win. I highly doubt that will change but either way I will play the game and have fun until I do not. I really do not understand people's need to constantly talk about it on forums and other platforms especially when NCSOFT has made it clear that global will have the same business model as KR. If the game is not for you then don't play.