Why is BO2 considered not canon?

[Unseen]

I've heard and read on a few forums that some fans don't consider BO2 canon, I was just curious as to why this is? Seemed like it was canon to me, as far as a prequel goes anything could of happened before soul reaver, and it seems like it built up to what would happen in SR nicely enough.

[Heartless]

Depends on who you ask. I have read that the developers consider it non-canon. Doing some research, one problem with Bo2 is vorador's appearance: during the normal timeline he is supposed to be dead during this time period. Apparently there's also an issue with Janos but I don't recall him being in BO2. If janos is alive in Bo2 though, again he is supposed to be dead by this time in nosgoth's history.

Personally, I agree that BO2 should not be canon: no other time has vampire kain been defeated in combat (outside of SR games which I believe he threw the fights with Raziel on purpose). If you look at the rest of the lore, kain is super powerful and, in his vampire form, undefeated. The Soul Reaver is a devestating, legendary weapon. For kain to be defeated and the soul reaver stolen and then weakend via the nexus stone, personally it doesn't jive with the rest of the story.

We would have to see how it fits in if the series is ever actually finished.

[Baziel Moon]

Where did you read it was non-canon? I'd be genuinely interested if you have source for that. I've got tonnes of archives but I've never found a developer saying it was non-canon - quite the opposite, in fact they often go out of their way to include and explain it, so if you have something like that it'd be much appreciated. All there is so far is just records of guys saying they were frustrated by it's direction and the problems they had to solve because of it but nothing that casts any doubt on its canon status.

There's no denying BO2 has its problems. They're well documented - and most important issues have been well explained by devs for years now. Incidentally both Vorador's and Janos's appearances in BO2 (Janos is the Beast below the Device) were considered problematic at the time of BO2's release as they were both dead but they were subsequently explained as a product of the alternative timeline created at the end of SR2 (which also gave us the events of BO2 and Defiance). Janos's resurrection was seen in Defiance and Vorador's was planned but ultimately left as cut content.

I don't think Kain is necessarily cast as quite the undefeated all powerful guy you want either. He'll get there eventually but in his younger days he gets killed by Brigands, loses to Malek, escapes from the Battle of Last Stand rather than stand his ground (though its debatable how much is his choice there) and its strongly implied given the the time travel rules that he must have lost to William while armed with the Soul Reaver in the original version of history. He's potentially still growing at the time of the BO2 opening but he's flawed and far from unchallenged at the time.
And yeah at that battle at the start of BO2 his opponent was using the Nexus Stone to weaken the Soul Reaver too, so he couldn't use it properly anyway. The various reason for the decisions to weaken and take away the Reaver and Kain's powers are explained in the designer diaries - and part of the reason is explicitly to avoid an all powerful undefeatable protagonist. The plot device itself could indeed be considered somewhat lazy writing, absolutely, and some may even prefer to personally brush over it and pretend it didn't happen or whatever, but that's not really what canon is.

Ultimately this has been mentioned in other areas of the thread but true 'canon' status isn't really decided by us, but by the statements of developers and publishers so they'd need to say it wasn't canon for it to be discounted really - hence if you do have a source we're missing please do let us know.

[Baziel Moon]

Indeed, just remember that whatever our personal opinions on BO2 are, they do not inform what is or isn't canon and they can't change what is or isn't canon. So BO2 will remain canon unless there is specific official word saying it isn't.

[Baziel Moon]

Yeah as we've been through before that would be each individual's personal belief - that's not what constitutes canon - its fanon or headcanon.
Official canon is something different, that's decided by the devs and publishers from the time of the work and would need an official statement or something discounting it from a subsequent project to overturn.
You're welcome to believe what you want about the series personally, but you can't claim its officially separate and non canon just that you personally believe it doesn't fit.
As I've said before I follow the reasoning to a certain extent - I'm definitely not saying BO2 is perfect and if that's your headcanon, then that's fine I'm not gonna dispute it - but I'll stick to the strict definition of canon.
Perhaps this thread should have been called 'headcanon: does BO2 count?' to make the issue clearer. Because the answer is obvious then: officially BO2 is absolutely 100‰ canon, but there are enough potential issues to cause some groups to discount it from their headcanons.

[Baziel Moon]

Well as we've previously discussed the comments of a developer or the various official sources do indeed carry a lot more weight than the say-so of a random opinion on the internet -that's precisely why they are documented, referenced and used. And as previously discussed someone trying to discard valid sources and trying to boil things down to a battle of opinions in an effort to booster the validity of their opinions when the official position directly contradicts them really does nothing to help the case - quite the opposite in fact.

It's just something that, like it or not, we have to accept. Just like Disney decided Star Wars canon, the rights holder hold sway here. You can dislike what they do all you want but it doesn't change the facts of the situation. They hold all the cards and until they decide to change the cards they've got this one down as canon and there's nothing anyone's opinion or claiming of inconsistencies can do to change that. Unfortunately that's just the way it goes.

Now before the sidetracking, the point at hand was a claim that developers had actually made statements saying this was non-canon. If that is true, it could well be a game changer in the fandom. The people that actually care about the nitty gritty of the series - who don't rely on opinion and hold the the lore and sources in high regard - would be very interested to see a valid source (ie not just an opinion piece) stating that this was the case. No opinion or claim can match up to an official word and no opinion could change what is objectively true. I'd be very interested to see such a source.
Until it can be provided there's really nothing more to say on the subject.

[Raina Audron]

"And the fact that devs allows to happen such things means the only one thing - they do not control and do not understand the universe that was created by them. Very simple."

Hahaha, didn't have such a good laugh in the long time. The creators don't understand but you certainly do. Give me a break.

You seriously need to look up what canon and headcanon mean, because your current dictionary seems faulty... It is completely irrelevant if there are any "mistakes", you can find them in each game, so according to that logic, all games are non-canon? You have 0 authority on this. Last time I checked you never worked for Eidos/SE so your opinion on what is canon is completely irrelevant.

[Raina Audron]

The game is titled Blood Omen 2 with Legacy of Kain series on the cover. Made by CD and published by Eidos. Not sure what else you want to prove it belongs in the series. It literally bears its name. It doesn't matter what happens in the game, it is part of the main series and you can't change it. You can ignore it, sure, but your opinions are not facts.

That logo was inserted by you, it does not mean you work for them at all nor it gives you any credibility to say what is considered part of the franchise.

And yes, maybe you should focus on tech support only as you've again and again proven you have no clue about the series itself.

[Baziel Moon]

Rofl that's classic! As you have made it abundantly clear many times over the years you are not affiliated in any way with the developers of LoK and you're talking to others who've actually been officially credited. lmao anything to avoid accepting fault - classy man, thanks for the entertainment.
Let us know when you have something that goes beyond your opinion and we'll hold out for the facts

[Raina Audron]

Wait, but you said prior to this that devs cannot be trusted yet now you claim to be one of them meaning you are not trustworthy either according to your logic...

[Baziel Moon]

Hang on man, I'm still laughing at the last reply. :D
Honestly thanks man, that was pretty funny and it came out of the blue. I thought you didn't have much of a sense of humour but I can see I'm mistaken. :D
Obviously you're still entitled to your opinion as your own personal beliefs and I'm still gonna want actual official word and sources as a basis for the official position cos that's my way, but that was pretty amusing. :D

[Baziel Moon]

Lol nice try man. You should try being funny more often. It genuinely is pretty entertaining.

If you do happen to find something to back up your opinion though, do let us know. Until then we all know the score here. Take care

[Baziel Moon]

Lol we've been saying the same about you for ages - even earlier in the same thread - but I think I've finally understand now. This is all tongue in cheek isn't it? For years I thought you were serious about this stuff, but I get it now, sorry if I've misunderstood the sense of humour.

[Raina Audron]

Better than worshipping some random dude on the internet for sure lol.

[Allard]

"Would I be better manipulated by you?"

Now declaring yourself one of the devs and as such the one who declares what is and isn't canon is a new height of insanity even for you, my dear.

[Raina Audron]

Respect and worship are 2 different things and you don´t deserve either.