Stop nerfing, start buffing

[Fate]

Dev please stop nerfing things, it's not fun or cute. It's not a good way to balance the game, in fact it's a very poor way of going about it.

Try buffing classes that are under-performing and leave the stronger classes as-is until things are balanced as such.

[Fate]

Originally posted by Xyntech:

Originally posted by Fate:

Playing those classes are a much better experience for me however I don't have much interest in Reaper which is why I didn't bring it up as I am not planning to play them atm, I'll let others who play that class make their opinions with it otherwise it would be pretty disingenuous of me to bring it up.

You play three classes, but not the class that's the weakest? I'm pressing X to doubt that it's really just a personal preference thing. If you want to make wild claims about one of the stronger classes in the game being supposedly nerfed into oblivion, maybe play a little of the class that's widely considered to be the weakest. You don't have to get it to Master rank, just play Reaper enough to get some actual perspective on the game.

Originally posted by Fate:

It's not crazy talk, late game options for Pyro in my experience all fall short compared to other classes late game options for the most part. Again I'm not gonna bring up Reaper as I do not play them, but they are very strong early game vs pyro I will say that much.

Ranger is weak in the early game, strong in the late game. Reaper is strong in the early game, weak in the late game. Berserker and Pyro are pretty good all over. If you're having trouble with Pyro, you're doing something wrong.

Originally posted by Fate:

I trash on those "good weapons and subclasses" you mentioned easily with berserker and ranger, and they trash me when I'm pyro. It's pretty consistent and the class is very underwhelming to climb ladder after a certain point.

What rank Berserker and Ranger are we talking about? I don't believe you that you're winning Platinum+ ranked battles every time against Pyro with your Berserkers and Rangers, while also still winning enough against every other class to rise through the ranks.

Originally posted by Fate:

And I'm not sure why you were confused about my statement of "real world examples". That's not at all what I meant...I meant give me examples of devs letting things spiral out of control for numbers getting too crazy and big for them to balance things right.

As for as the "real world examples," I guess it was just a miscommunication. But literally just google the term power creep, I don't plan to dig up examples of a well documented term.

Can you show me one "real world example" of a multiplayer video game where they only buffed things? Where they never nerfed anything and all it led to was fun and joy for everyone? Maybe it's like communism and real buffing has never been tried, maybe no developer has ever been crazy enough to never nerf a single item, but if they did it would lead to a death spiral of imbalance and bleeding players.

Why is there no term similar to "power creep," but to describe nerfs killing a game? Something like "nerf death" or whatever it would be. If I'm mistaken, please provide me with the term so I can look up.

Originally posted by Fate:

And what elephant in the room? I never denied that they are buffing things, in fact it's a problem they buff things AND nerf pyro even more than just simply nerfing it and not buffing others in terms of a pyro's viewpoint. It just makes it all the more harsh for pyro's to succeed in getting to 10 wins and certainly beyond 10 wins.

Well you acknowledged buffs, which is more than some people do, but even in the above quote you only acknowledge general buffs, NOT Pyro buffs:

Originally posted by Fate:

they buff things AND nerf pyro even more

Pyros are fine. If they need a little more buffing, they'll get it, just as Pyros have continued to receive buffs each patch. If anything is overpowered, be it Pyro or otherwise, it deserves a nerf. Balance leads to more fun for more players. Buffing things and nerfing things are both good tools to achieve game balance. Sorry you've lost some joy in life, but I'm not sorry that Pyro got some very reasonable little nerfs.

The reason why I don't play Reaper is because 1) I am not that interested in its style of gameplay and 2) because it didn't seem that strong. Whether it is the weakest compared to pyro or not I CANNOT say as I do not play it, nor do I care in the context of this post, nor does it really matter here because if they are truly weaker, they should be BUFFED more. I'm all for that, so what's the problem? Pyro was just one prime example as I can speak about it from experience. I tend to stick with what I know more about.

I have done the "strongest" builds that I've seen around with Pyro many times, since the initial nerfs, even on ocassion I'd have what I thought was the most maximized/min-maxed builds I could possible get just about still got trashed. I been following guides/videos suggestions to a T, even having the exact builds sometimes and still utterly trashed.

When I face Pyros now, they all get trashed on by me. So...would that mean everyone is doing something wrong as Pyro? if I lose to a pyro I feel I'm either at a very awkward round, very unlucky (which would be rare), or I'm doing something very wrong and I feel like I failed miserably with the build. It's become a useless class for me in ranked. In essence, I'm always glad to face a pyro as Ranger or Berserker, I don't really lose vs them, and I dread facing them as a Pyro.

And in terms of not bringing up Pyro buffs, I just didn't even feel it mattered as they feel weaker than ever so why should I feel the need to bring it up? Is it really a buff if they perform worse? You can debate that they don't and it's just a skill issue sorta thing, and while I resign the fact that I'm sure there are some really amazing players out there who can get to Masters and above as a Pyro currently, I doubt many find it fun or easy to do so and the number of them who can pull that off is probably very very low now.

It's unfortunate devs hide these statistics from us so we don't really know the winrates of each rank for each class and so on is really like, so I can only in reality simply guess from my experiences how others perform now.

I'm also aware of power creep btw, it's not a new concept for me just saying but I don't think that is applicable here so far. No fear of power creep happening, new content that comes out isn't making things obsolete other than the nerfs. Buffing more things won't make everything obsolete anytime soon either. If power creep truly starts showings it ugly head you can tone things down then safely.

The trick is ensuring new content doesn't make older content useless. My point and hope is to make current content more fun and viable while preventing your balancing from making other viable things to be now no longer viable.

[Bumc]

Yes, nerfing stuff feels bad.
But there is a definite cut-off when you have to bring out the nerf bat and it has to do with fight time.

Typical good fight lasts 15-20 seconds, you have all items fire off several times and it didn't go into overdrive fatigue snoozefest just yet.

The biggest nerfs unsurprisingly were when average fight time was around 5-10 seconds -- poison bomb meta and crossblades.

And no, buffing defensive items doesn't solve the issue for a similar reason -- building defensive also feels bad.

P.S.
I don't think devs hide the statistics, its just that its extra work to make it presentable.

[Xyntech]

I don't currently find Ranger to be a lot of fun to play. It just is annoying for me to build around it and to lose constantly until I get it going late game. That being said, Ranger is doing fine in the meta and isn't the worst off as far as balance goes, I'm not going to complain if Crit Ranger gets nerfed soon, because it deserves it. Ranger could probably use some buffs, certainly in the early game, but overall it's ridiculous to complain about it at the moment.

Pyro on the other hand, I currently have fun with. I have no beef with you if your opinion is that Pyro used to be fun to play and now it isn't for you, but my personal experience is to disagree. But there's no point debating personal preference, it's subjective and we either agree, or we don't.

Objectivity is more important to discussions of balance, Objectively, Pyro is still very viable, based on other players, not just my own experience. I, as well as others, win against Pyros and lose against Pyros, regardless of which class we are playing. I too would appreciate if the devs released their internal data, but I'm not too concerned about it because the changes they've made thus far seems to reflect what I can see in the game with my own two eyes. Naturally I'm going to be suspicious of you claiming otherwise, especially if you aren't even getting first hand experience with a quarter of the games balance.

[Fate]

Originally posted by Bumc:

Yes, nerfing stuff feels bad.
But there is a definite cut-off when you have to bring out the nerf bat and it has to do with fight time.

Typical good fight lasts 15-20 seconds, you have all items fire off several times and it didn't go into overdrive fatigue snoozefest just yet.

The biggest nerfs unsurprisingly were when average fight time was around 5-10 seconds -- poison bomb meta and crossblades.

And no, buffing defensive items doesn't solve the issue for a similar reason -- building defensive also feels bad.

P.S.
I don't think devs hide the statistics, its just that its extra work to make it presentable.

Well I mean, there's not even a leaderboard, which doesn't seem like too much work or too much to ask for.

[Xyntech]

It is early access, it's a two person team of developers. Keep them accountable, but cut them a little slack. They've been shockingly consistent with the frequent patches.

[Fate]

Originally posted by Xyntech:

I don't currently find Ranger to be a lot of fun to play. It just is annoying for me to build around it and to lose constantly until I get it going late game. That being said, Ranger is doing fine in the meta and isn't the worst off as far as balance goes, I'm not going to complain if Crit Ranger gets nerfed soon, because it deserves it. Ranger could probably use some buffs, certainly in the early game, but overall it's ridiculous to complain about it at the moment.

Pyro on the other hand, I currently have fun with. I have no beef with you if your opinion is that Pyro used to be fun to play and now it isn't for you, but my personal experience is to disagree. But there's no point debating personal preference, it's subjective and we either agree, or we don't.

Objectivity is more important to discussions of balance, Objectively, Pyro is still very viable, based on other players, not just my own experience. I, as well as others, win against Pyros and lose against Pyros, regardless of which class we are playing. I too would appreciate if the devs released their internal data, but I'm not too concerned about it because the changes they've made thus far seems to reflect what I can see in the game with my own two eyes. Naturally I'm going to be suspicious of you claiming otherwise, especially if you aren't even getting first hand experience with a quarter of the games balance.

I still don't understand what you mean by being suspicious as i've been very up front about everything but to each their own. I could say the same because your experience seems to be wildly different from mine which I find odd. I'm attempting to be as objective as I can be but there's only so much info to be had on my end.

Not playing reaper vs me playing reaper would not change anything. Whether I felt they were the strongest or weakest, my stance remains. As a newer player, I have roughly over 260 hours under my belt thus far, and the largest portion of that to be Pyro. I believe I have reason to at least have enough of an opinion about Pyro's current state of play, and does not invalidate my opinion merely because I don't feel like playing Reaper yet.

As a genuine curiosity what rank do you play as pyro currently since you still play them?

[Bumc]

If there was a leaderboard, you'd see a lot of cheaters there.

[Fate]

Originally posted by Xyntech:

It is early access, it's a two person team of developers. Keep them accountable, but cut them a little slack. They've been shockingly consistent with the frequent patches.

I love this game, I think they made a great game, but IMO there is an over-arching problem among devs to nerf things.

And I often disagree with said nerfs unless the nerf is in context of toning down a recent buff. And again, I think a leaderboard shouldn't be too much work. I'm glad they are updating often as a general sentiment, no one wants a dead game.

[Fate]

Originally posted by Bumc:

If there was a leaderboard, you'd see a lot of cheaters there.

Multiplayer games need to have something to give us an indication of how well certain things are doing other than devs saying "overperforming". Very blanket statement that could mean just about anything.

If cheaters are to be a huge problem due to a leaderboard then there surely should be an alternative to give us a better understanding of how things are performing, hopefully there will be in time.

[Xyntech]

Originally posted by Fate:

As a genuine curiosity what rank do you play as pyro currently since you still play them?

High Platinum/low Diamond. I'm currently mostly trying to rank Reaper up to Diamond, as I like to keep all my classes around the same rank. It's slow going when you don't prefer forcing the meta-builds, but that's my problem not the game's problem.

I see a lot of Diamond or Master+ games, so I can see what's working and whether or not it's just at my rank. I'm definitely not a top player, but I can see where balance issues exist. I'd rather learn the game and have fun than burn out quick forcing a class or two to Grandma. Take anything I say with whatever appropriate grain of salt, but I'm not wrong about Pyro.

Where's your Ranger and Berserker currently sitting rankwise, if you don't mind me also being curious?

Originally posted by Bumc:

If there was a leaderboard, you'd see a lot of cheaters there.

I'd guess it's better to get it out in the open, but perhaps it's complicated. If the devs are truthful that they catch a lot of them and drop them out of your potential player pool, they could drop them from the leaderboard too. But if they did that, it would incentivise being sneakier with the cheating which is something the devs probably want to hold off on encouraging until they have more ways to counter it.

[Bumc]

Originally posted by Xyntech:

I'd guess it's better to get it out in the open, but perhaps it's complicated. If the devs are truthful that they catch a lot of them and drop them out of your potential player pool, they could drop them from the leaderboard too. But if they did that, it would incentivise being sneakier with the cheating which is something the devs probably want to hold off on encouraging until they have more ways to counter it.

Exactly, currently there is no point in trying to force your cheat-bags inside the public flow, and no real way to check if your build is there.

Once you pull a leaderboard online, the battle is on. And the 2-man dev team will definitely lose it to the current player base.

[Fate]

Originally posted by Xyntech:

Originally posted by Fate:

As a genuine curiosity what rank do you play as pyro currently since you still play them?

High Platinum/low Diamond. I'm currently mostly trying to rank Reaper up to Diamond, as I like to keep all my classes around the same rank. It's slow going when you don't prefer forcing the meta-builds, but that's my problem not the game's problem.

I see a lot of Diamond or Master+ games, so I can see what's working and whether or not it's just at my rank. I'm definitely not a top player, but I can see where balance issues exist. I'd rather learn the game and have fun than burn out quick forcing a class or two to Grandma. Take anything I say with whatever appropriate grain of salt, but I'm not wrong about Pyro.

Where's your Ranger and Berserker currently sitting rankwise, if you don't mind me also being curious?

Originally posted by Bumc:

If there was a leaderboard, you'd see a lot of cheaters there.

I'd guess it's better to get it out in the open, but perhaps it's complicated. If the devs are truthful that they catch a lot of them and drop them out of your potential player pool, they could drop them from the leaderboard too. But if they did that, it would incentivise being sneakier with the cheating which is something the devs probably want to hold off on encouraging until they have more ways to counter it.

Ranger is diamond since I started focusing on them more now and I'm finding it easier than Pyro in Diamond. I can feel better about going beyond the 10 wins which is the biggest difference of all. Early game isn't too bad if you use broom+sword and have some bananas and nature items.

Berserker is close to diamond atm but they are my "2ndary" class right now so Ranger is going to hopefully get into masters first and see how that goes.

[Xyntech]

Originally posted by Fate:

I love this game, I think they made a great game, but IMO there is an over-arching problem among devs to nerf things.

And I often disagree with said nerfs unless the nerf is in context of toning down a recent buff. And again, I think a leaderboard shouldn't be too much work. I'm glad they are updating often as a general sentiment, no one wants a dead game.

Apologies if I get too passionate in my philosophical disagreements on game design. If we both like the game and both want it to be fun and to do well, hopefully we both end up getting what we want.

At the moment, even from your philosophy, I'd prefer to look at the Pyro being added to the game as sort of like a recent buff, a new class buffed into existence by all of these new Pyro items. It's stretching your use of the terms, but some small nerfs to make sure it integrates well with the rest of the game seem appropriate to me. I think a lot of disagreements often stem from slight differences in perspective on things people otherwise would agree on. I don't need you to come over to my point of view, but I'm happy to understand more about your concerns and how it could effect the health of the game.

I don't think either of us wants Pyro, or any other class, to be unfun to play. Hopefully in a few weeks time, some new patches will make both of us happy. You can't please everyone all the time, but hopefully the Backpack Battles devs find the best path forward.

[Fate]

Originally posted by Xyntech:

Originally posted by Fate:

I love this game, I think they made a great game, but IMO there is an over-arching problem among devs to nerf things.

And I often disagree with said nerfs unless the nerf is in context of toning down a recent buff. And again, I think a leaderboard shouldn't be too much work. I'm glad they are updating often as a general sentiment, no one wants a dead game.

Apologies if I get too passionate in my philosophical disagreements on game design. If we both like the game and both want it to be fun and to do well, hopefully we both end up getting what we want.

At the moment, even from your philosophy, I'd prefer to look at the Pyro being added to the game as sort of like a recent buff, a new class buffed into existence by all of these new Pyro items. It's stretching your use of the terms, but some small nerfs to make sure it integrates well with the rest of the game seem appropriate to me. I think a lot of disagreements often stem from slight differences in perspective on things people otherwise would agree on. I don't need you to come over to my point of view, but I'm happy to understand more about your concerns and how it could effect the health of the game.

I don't think either of us wants Pyro, or any other class, to be unfun to play. Hopefully in a few weeks time, some new patches will make both of us happy. You can't please everyone all the time, but hopefully the Backpack Battles devs find the best path forward.

Well cheers to that, I certainly don't disagree. I think you bringing up power-creep was relevant to a small degree due to Pyro being introduced and starting off quite strong if not the strongest was certainly a concern for everyone, and I was going along with that sentiment as well.

I guess the method of their approach to correcting that issue was the heart of the matter to which I am griping/disagreeing with in particular. I certainly didn't ignore the fact that something was needed to change.

[Xyntech]

I'll 100% join the choir championing for Pyro buffs if 4 weeks from now Pyro is doing as badly as Reaper was a couple weeks ago.