Fly Agaric is OP

[spielerinchen]

i lost as Ranger against Reaper who had only one shovel but 2 Fly Agaric. i had a Pan & a Dagger supported by a Whetstone & i had even a Wooden Buckler & a Health Potion, the other stuff we both had was bit of food. the Reaper won practically by poisoning me , not by hitting me. how much health & space would i need to counter that ? or how potent a weapon in that early stage ?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3093841885

[Dirichlet]

This "total optimization" you refer to is the game. Like, that's what the whole game is. It's an auto-battler; there's no gameplay in the battles themselves. The game is in figuring out these little micro-advantages, and abusing them as much as possible.

You're right that there's an early game bias against Ranger at the moment, but it's not a forgone conclusion by any means. It's a relatively slight imbalance which was inevitable given the quite radical changes they made to the core mechanics. The devs will already be well aware of this (they have all the games stats to look at as well as feedback), so it's not anything to stress over. It's just a demo right now, so it's the right time to be tinkering and trying new things out.

[Kman]

Dude, just admit you played a poor round. The mental gymnastics you're going through defending your poor play is astounding. Like many have pointed out, this was a operator error, not a backpack imbalance. Own up to your mistakes, and move on.

[spielerinchen]

so far all my critics have not addressed my questions, also not addressed the backpack of the Reaper. all the critics just defend the current build of the game, which is not even in Early Access.

[Furio]

Originally posted by spielerinchen:

so far all my critics have not addressed my questions, also not addressed the backpack of the Reaper. all the critics just defend the current build of the game, which is not even in Early Access.

Your question makes no sense. Rangers can't get Fly Agarics. Rangers get to crit hit instead.

To answer your question of "how much health", it's moot as there is currently no way to increase your health. So you'll always have the same health as your opponent. You can prevent damage and you can heal. But in doing so you'll have given up on alternatives which could do dps. The game is about figuring this out.

The classes are asymmetrical. The reapers poison will win in the long run if they face someone who shows up with a very poor damage output.

Also, your opponent set their backpack suboptimal as well, but you simply lost because you showed up to a fight basically without weapons, where your opponent did not. You could have won that fight easily. As such the problem is hardly imbalance.

[spielerinchen]

Originally posted by Furio:

Your question makes no sense. Rangers can't get Fly Agarics. Rangers get to crit hit instead.

afaik Rangers don't get crit hit until later in game while Fly Agarics is among the first items Reapers get, so not comparable

i stated now repeadedly, what i compare is with a similar backpack as the Reaper if being a Ranger they would have lost & that's what's about for me here

in the case at hand, my damage output should have been enough to win, instead the Reaper's poison output was enough cause those Fly Agaric (& maybe the coffin) are actually a weapon while apparently the Ranger has to be played by a total control freak otherwise will lose.
so what is being suggested is manic control by the player is the counterbalance to the Reaper's poison. the problem is, manic control is not a gameplay content, poison is.
which would mean, Rangers are playable satisfactory only by a certain type of player personality & that goes way beyond asymetrical classes design.

[Hurkyl]

Also, Rangers start with a Banana rather than a Garlic. Banana has very slightly better health regeneration, and allows you to do more melee damage via the stamina regeneration.

Also, Rangers can get carrots and Reapers can't.

And, of course, the starting lucky clover. I haven't bothered counting, but that's probably good for converting around one hit into a crit (if you put your weapons in the ranger bag) and one miss into a hit in the first couple rounds.

The asymmetry is that ranger is geared for killing early, reaper for killing late. It's harder for Reaper to win short fights and Ranger to win long fights.

[spielerinchen]

Originally posted by Hurkyl:

The asymmetry is that ranger is geared for killing early, reaper for killing late. It's harder for Reaper to win short fights and Ranger to win long fights.

thanx, that's a fairly useful info instead telling me that i should become a control freak

also according to the wiki only the Health Potion can remove poison

on a nearer inspection, i've got hit at the end not only with 13 Poison but also with 4 Blind on top & only the Book of Light removes blindness, so for a Reaper early on a Shovel & Fly Agaric is quite a good weapons combo

[Astralduelist]

With all due respect, OP is a whiner who didn't optimise his early build properly which is crucial to have an efficient start as Ranger to win before the poison ramps up. Double Banana + herbs is already decent sustain.
Fly Agaric is not an issue, Reaper just did the obvious poison passive optimisation which is how you should do it. Could have +1 proc chance by placing agaric and garlic horizontally.
This gotta be a bait or OP is just tilted/under an influence of something.

[Furio]

Originally posted by spielerinchen:

also according to the wiki only the Health Potion can remove poison

No, the Fly Agaric is a rare food item which is exclusive for the Reaper. The Ranger also has a rare exclusive food item which is a Carrot. The Carrot counters the Fly Agaric by removing debuffs.

However the Ranger starts with a Clover which gives 5% crit chance. This chance to crit applies on weapon hits only, so to utilize that effectively you need to actually hit with a weapon. Try having 2 weapons. That will double the effectiveness of luck.

[Arcon]

Originally posted by spielerinchen:

what is the comparable Ranger item to the Reaper's Fly Agaric ?

Technically clover, blueberry sort of.

Originally posted by spielerinchen:

what's with the difference between the backpacks of the two classes ?

One is supposed to be damage over time, the other direct high damage. Reaper is about stalling to win - Ranger is about killing before that happens.

Originally posted by spielerinchen:

would that Reaper's backpack build win still as a Ranger ?

You're debating semantics here my man. You lost to board position, nothing more. I do see a little better position your opponent could do, but they get the idea.

You on the other hand are all over the place on position. Whetstone is the only thing in position - everything else is pandemonium. Food isn't together, food isn't setup to buff the pan. You have healing herbs but it's not setup to upgrade the healing potion. Dagger is very meh, spectral dagger can be ok, but doubt that's why you bought it.

Your opponent grasps all this - so if he was ranger he would have different items arranged correctly and win by a larger margin.
--
So Ranger is weaker than Reaper - Reaper simply has a lot more options. Ranger does have one of the strongest builds for what it's worth. But reaper can burst down OR fatigue - Ranger really only has one option.

It's just easier to force a fatigue out of an opponent than to burst damage them down, especially early on. Ranger can do this, but without passive damage, it's like farting in the wind. It can be done in this meta, you just need to play smarter.

[Jürgen]

dude just put the 2 banana and the garlic at the pan for +3 dmg every attack? u lost 0hp vs 3hp, if u played correct u would have won easy. even 1 banane or the garlic alone would be enough.

[spielerinchen]

so i am back to the original title of the thread cause Poison is a strong weapon atm

a Reaper has always at least one Fly Agaric, very often already early on even 2, the damage done is even stronger than Spikes

either it needs some nerf or more options to counter it, especialy early on

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3099740373

[Bumc]

there are ways to counter it early on, you're just on the wrong end of rock-paper-scissors there -- 2 weapons with damage >> poison >> spikes >> 2 weapons. And no, spectral dagger isn't really a weapon there, it barely did the same as hero sword.

[Nibbie]

Originally posted by spielerinchen:

so i am back to the original title of the thread cause Poison is a strong weapon atm

a Reaper has always at least one Fly Agaric, very often already early on even 2, the damage done is even stronger than Spikes

either it needs some nerf or more options to counter it, especialy early on

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3099740373

You have a thorns build, your opponent used poison and countered you. As above, rock paper scissors; if they had more weapons and thus less poison or healing, they probably would have lost, whereas you may have won if you had more damage or healing instead of thorns. Random opponents is the nature of the game, and I'll join in saying that the title's round is 100% your fault and you are a fool if you continue to think otherwise. Your opponent's backpack is close to optimal, yours was almost as bad as it could possibly be. That you almost won that anyway is evidence against your point, not for it.

[spielerinchen]

Originally posted by Bumc:

there are ways to counter it early on, you're just on the wrong end of rock-paper-scissors there -- 2 weapons with damage >> poison >> spikes >> 2 weapons. And no, spectral dagger isn't really a weapon there, it barely did the same as hero sword.

you think i would choose those if i had something better ?
or do you deem maybe the Hammer a great weapon or the Bow or the Pan or the Broom or the Shovel ? there was nothing else, handfull of sand, blueberries, lol

don't you see what i complain about ?
the Reaper gets a regular potent "weapon" the Fly Agaric, takes little space, is 3 gold cheap, sends off new poison every 5 sec. which remains active, compounds & causes damage every 2 seconds.