Rusty Axe Useless

[DukeDankins]

The rusty axe is both harder to get than the modern axe, and worse. Discuss.

Edit: Suggestion - Have the modern and rusty axes swap places, maybe put a virginia by the modern axe. Easy, fast, fixes the balance.

[DanteBrane]

I was talking about this in a different post. Once you get the modern axe, the crafted axe and rusty axe are useless. Modern axe stats are better in every way and can be made even better with upgrades. Even if you put upgrades on the other axes, they're still inferior. Only reasons to use them is if you want to handicap yourself or if you like the way they look(Rusty axe details look amazing after it's new remodel).

That's why I why I think the weapons should have durability, gives you more of an incentive to mix up your use on the weapons. Crafted axe would have the worst durability but they can be easily remade and expendable. Rusty axe would be in between with durability and the modern axe would have the most.

Then just add timers, random item spawns and enemy respawns for the items in caves so that you have a reason to explore and get the best weapons again. You'd want to save your best weapons durability for when you really need them.

And an alternative to that could be making the weapons break but keeping them in your inventory, then you would just need to get items to repair the weapon. They added electrical tape, that could be a primary item needed for repairs. And other things seems to wash onto the beaches, other items needed for repair could spawn on the beaches or be found in cannibal villages at random.

Example: Crafted Axe is broken, combine it with another rope or stick to repair. Modern axe is broken, combine it with tape (and a new axe head found on the beach?) to repair.

Or instead of weapon breakage, add a whetstone that you need to sharpen the weapons. The damage would slightly go down as you hit things with bladed weapons to simulate the blade losing its edge and turning blunt.

[DukeDankins]

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with making some tools obsolete once you get something better. This is a PvE game so pure upgrades are fine; the plane axe is only meant as a starter tool and the crafted axe is a stop-gap measure.

[DanteBrane]

Originally posted by Sir Derpykins:

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with making some tools obsolete once you get something better. This is a PvE game so pure upgrades are fine; the plane axe is only meant as a starter tool and the crafted axe is a stop-gap measure.

I see it as a waste, might as well just have the plane axe and modern axe only. Besides stats, all weapons function the same. And like OP said, you can get the best weapon faster and easier than you could get a subpar weapon.

Edit: Just realized you're OP, lol. Sorry about that.

[BananaKaboom]

Originally posted by Sir Derpykins:

The rusty axe is both harder to get than the modern axe, and worse. Discuss.

George Carlin had a bit about the illusion of meaningless choices - an entire aisle full of cat food and things like that. They've gone with the Zelda approach, but instead of distinct items that give us interesting new functionality, a lot of them are basically a different model with slightly different numbers behind it. War club / crafted club, weak spear / upgraded spear, katana / machete, the axes, etc.

If the machete let you perform special stealth kills, or there were a set of tree climbing spurs that would let you drop down on unsuspecting cannibals, or a trowel that let you use sap and rocks to drastically increase the strength of walls, it might be worth the effort. Otherwise I say just stick to the crafted versions, unless they nerf them to force us into the caves, which is what turned me off of 7DTD.

Originally posted by DanteBrane:

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That's why I why I think the weapons should have durability, gives you more of an incentive to mix up your use on the weapons. Crafted axe would have the worst durability but they can be easily remade and expendable. Rusty axe would be in between with durability and the modern axe would have the most.

I think durability would be a death sentence to the items in this game, honestly. They tried a realistic way to simulate nutrition, and they ended up having to drastically scale it back, which I think is an amazingly smart decision at this stage in development. Even if they implemented durability perfectly, would it really add much to the game beyond "Do we have another axe? Mine's broken again. No? Back to that stupid cave, then."

[DanteBrane]

Originally posted by BananaKaboom:

Even if they implemented durability perfectly, would it really add much to the game beyond "Do we have another axe? Mine's broken again. No? Back to that stupid cave, then."

Then instead of the weapon breaking and needing to find it again, you would have to repair it with tape, rope, cloth, tree sap, etc. Whetstone for sharpening blades, you wouldn't even need a whetstone as any rock could probably suffice. For example, say the modern axe does 7 bars of damage. After constant use with no sharpening, it's damage has gone down to 5 bars. Trees take a couple more hits to be cut down also. Then you just sharpen it back to max damage. That doesn't seem too demanding for both player and developer.

EDIT: So to summarize, weapons instead need the relevant item to repair. A crafted or modern bow would need new rope, a crafted axe would need tape or rope, etc. Sturdier weapons like the modern axe, katana, and rusty axe would need sharpening instead of being able to break.

[Minibuh]

Originally posted by Sir Derpykins:

The rusty axe is both harder to get than the modern axe, and worse. Discuss.

you can put it on a weapon holder

[BananaKaboom]

Originally posted by DanteBrane:

For example, say the modern axe does 7 bars of damage. After constant use with no sharpening, it's damage has gone down to 5 bars. Trees take a couple more hits to be cut down also. Then you just sharpen it back to max damage. That doesn't seem too demanding for both player and developer.

EDIT: So to summarize, weapons instead need the relevant item to repair. A crafted or modern bow would need new rope, a crafted axe would need tape or rope, etc. Sturdier weapons like the modern axe, katana, and rusty axe would need sharpening instead of being able to break.

It sounds too demanding for the payoff IMO. Another set of recipes, one for each of the items that could potentially break, plus the balancing involved when we realize how scarce duct tape really is without respawning suitcases. I mean, if I'm building a fort to stave off a cannibal attack, I don't see it as a chore, because there's an ultimate payoff. It's part of the excitement, particularly if you like building.

It's like if I wanted to make a picnic table. Buying the materials and setting everything out is a necessary part of the process and can be fun, but breaking a tool in the middle and having to drive back to the hardware store isn't. It's just time lost.

[DanteBrane]

Originally posted by BananaKaboom:

Originally posted by DanteBrane:

For example, say the modern axe does 7 bars of damage. After constant use with no sharpening, it's damage has gone down to 5 bars. Trees take a couple more hits to be cut down also. Then you just sharpen it back to max damage. That doesn't seem too demanding for both player and developer.

EDIT: So to summarize, weapons instead need the relevant item to repair. A crafted or modern bow would need new rope, a crafted axe would need tape or rope, etc. Sturdier weapons like the modern axe, katana, and rusty axe would need sharpening instead of being able to break.

It sounds too demanding for the payoff IMO. Another set of recipes, one for each of the items that could potentially break, plus the balancing involved when we realize how scarce duct tape really is without respawning suitcases. I mean, if I'm building a fort to stave off a cannibal attack, I don't see it as a chore, because there's an ultimate payoff. It's part of the excitement, particularly if you like building.

It's like if I wanted to make a picnic table. Buying the materials and setting everything out is a necessary part of the process and can be fun, but breaking a tool in the middle and having to drive back to the hardware store isn't. It's just time lost.

C'mon dude, complaining about a basic feature that is in every survival game, fits the type of game this is going for and is in other games with minor survival themes. Even Minecraft has durability. I even dumbed it down enough so that only like 1 or 2 items are needed. With 1 of those items being very prevalent and the other being a more of a luxury. And thats what the modern items are, a luxury.

If you want to have your best stuff in good condition, you gotta take care of it and conserve it for when you really need it. Crafted weapons would serve that purpose too, being a more common tool to use to save your modern stuff.

You're out on the woods surviving, you're not gonna find everything you need after one scavenge run cause that's the name of the game. If your weapon breaks in the middle of combat, it's probably you're fault for using a half broken weapon in combat and not paying attention to the durabilities of your tools. And you could easily switch to another weapon on hand if it breaks. Durability should've been a feature since day 1 imo.

EDIT: And duct tape wouldn't have to be found only in suitcases. An easy way to balance item spawns would be having stuff wash onto the beaches (A.K.A. spawn) every couple of days. And even just putting timers on the spawns of items would suffice. Suitcases don't exactly have to stop spawning, just put a timer of a couple days or a week. If youre running low on a certain item and get annoyed by it, probably your fault for constantly using up your supply of that item or not stocking up.

And items could also spawn In the caves and villages. Exploring a cave to find tools wouldnt be a chore either, caves are part of the game.n a survival situation you scavenge, conserve, and use what you need, when you need it. It makes you have to plan and make decisions. My weapons durability is low and I'm running low on supplies, I better plan out a route I should scavenge. Same principle as hunting when low on food, no one complains about that.

[BananaKaboom]

Originally posted by DanteBrane:

Originally posted by BananaKaboom:

It sounds too demanding for the payoff IMO. Another set of recipes, one for each of the items that could potentially break, plus the balancing involved when we realize how scarce duct tape really is without respawning suitcases. I mean, if I'm building a fort to stave off a cannibal attack, I don't see it as a chore, because there's an ultimate payoff. It's part of the excitement, particularly if you like building.

It's like if I wanted to make a picnic table. Buying the materials and setting everything out is a necessary part of the process and can be fun, but breaking a tool in the middle and having to drive back to the hardware store isn't. It's just time lost.

C'mon dude, complaining about a basic feature that is in every survival game, fits the type of game this is going for and is in other games with minor survival themes. Even Minecraft has durability. I even dumbed it down enough so that only like 1 or 2 items are needed. With 1 of those items being very prevalent and the other being a more of a luxury. And thats what the modern items are, a luxury.

If you want to have your best stuff in good condition, you gotta take care of it and conserve it for when you really need it. Crafted weapons would serve that purpose too, being a more common tool to use to save your modern stuff.

You're out on the woods surviving, you're not gonna find everything you need after one scavenge run cause that's the name of the game. If your weapon breaks in the middle of combat, it's probably you're fault for using a half broken weapon in combat and not paying attention to the durabilities of your tools. And you could easily switch to another weapon on hand if it breaks. Durability should've been a feature since day 1 imo.

EDIT: And duct tape wouldn't have to be found only in suitcases. An easy way to balance item spawns would be having stuff wash onto the beaches (A.K.A. spawn) every couple of days. And even just putting timers on the spawns of items would suffice. Suitcases don't exactly have to stop spawning, just put a timer of a couple days or a week. If youre running low on a certain item and get annoyed by it, probably your fault for constantly using up your supply of that item or not stocking up.

And items could also spawn In the caves and villages. Exploring a cave to find tools wouldnt be a chore either, caves are part of the game.n a survival situation you scavenge, conserve, and use what you need, when you need it. It makes you have to plan and make decisions. My weapons durability is low and I'm running low on supplies, I better plan out a route I should scavenge. Same principle as hunting when low on food, no one complains about that.

It's not so much a complaint as a concern, specific to this game and how things have been implemented in the past. If like you say they added new caches of resources here and there to give us something to scavenge for as well as drive repairs, then great. It's another survival mechanic in a survival game. My playthrough's probably bugged if suitcases are supposed to respawn, as that's not happening at all anymore.

If they make the weapons brittle to drive people back into caves with newly respawning monsters, and it becomes an endless cycle of breaking your weapons on your way down to get parts to repair your axe or a new axe...

I like what you've said, so hopefully they go that way and it's relatively easy to implement.

[kornflakes89]

Originally posted by DanteBrane:

That's why I why I think the weapons should have durability,

And weapon durability being more annoying to deal with than anything else in just about every game it's in is why they shouldn't have durability.

Why do you think that Skyrim and Fallout 4 got rid of gear durability? And Dark Souls 2 and 3 made it so that everything is repaired when you rest at a bonfire? Simple, gear durability is annoying to deal with, it wouldn't be any different here.

Actually it'd be pretty pointless to add to this game, even if you don't have to directly repair them and just sharpen them, whetstones are just rocks, and rocks aren't hard to find at all. Keeping your gear maintained would be as trivial as keeping a fire lit since you can practically drown yourself in leaves in the first hour of the game.

[DanteBrane]

Originally posted by kornflakes89:

Originally posted by DanteBrane:

That's why I why I think the weapons should have durability,

And weapon durability being more annoying to deal with than anything else in just about every game it's in is why they shouldn't have durability.

Why do you think that Skyrim and Fallout 4 got rid of gear durability? And Dark Souls 2 and 3 made it so that everything is repaired when you rest at a bonfire? Simple, gear durability is annoying to deal with, it wouldn't be any different here.

Actually it'd be pretty pointless to add to this game, even if you don't have to directly repair them and just sharpen them, whetstones are just rocks, and rocks aren't hard to find at all. Keeping your gear maintained would be as trivial as keeping a fire lit since you can practically drown yourself in leaves in the first hour of the game.

This is a survival game, not a fanatasy rpg like Dark Souls or Skyrim (although it does have outlandish things). I can understand why durablity was removed in the Dark Souls games, you can't scavenge for supplies or materials in a giant open world like other games. And if the survival difficulty for Fallout 4 had weapon durability, I wouldn't mind because the mode is called SURVIVAL. If you use a shoddy weapon or item repeatedly, especially when using it outside of its designed purpose, its gonna break. Half the stuff in this game is made of sticks, of course they will eventually wear and break.

Weapon durability isn't always an annoyance if done right. You can stockpile yourself with all of these items and never have to use them because almost everything lasts forever, what is the point of scavenging for supplies? The Long Dark and 7D2D are games that come to mind that have durablity and do it good. And like I said before, even Minecraft has this feature.

EDIT: You say keeping your stuff maintained would be trivial, but with a couple of other tweaks to item spawns and spawn rates, it would add to the gameplay. Bad example using leaves since you're in a forest, of course leaves are everywhere. You got me there with rocks but I did suggest more than 1 way that they could do it.

You would have to really decide what your materials go to and how much of it you should use until you can get more. They could do it only to Hard Survival or just keep it as something you can enable or disable.

Also just read a little about sharpening a knife with any kind of stone. It can work, but it still works best with a whetstone or a rock from a river because of its smooth and round surface. They could allow us to combine one of the small rocks with a pot of water to make it suitable for sharpening in-game or make a seperate type of rock from the river that you can collect called 'smooth stone'? I love this game but it is a survival game that lacks strong or at least decent survival elements. Durability is one of the few things they could add to strengthen the survival element.

[Grandaddypurple]

I only read the OP because the rest is too long and topic not very interesting, but the rusty and crafted axe make for a good decoration ! Once you get the rebreather in submerged cave, you can run back to the exit and fetch the rusty axe later while passing by Geese Lake, not so much of a pain

[stoodscissors]

Originally posted by Sir Derpykins:

The rusty axe is both harder to get than the modern axe, and worse. Discuss.

Edit: Suggestion - Have the modern and rusty axes swap places, maybe put a virginia by the modern axe. Easy, fast, fixes the balance.

Totally agree with OP - swap rusty and modern axe placement.

[DukeDankins]

I remember having my plane spawn right by the village, went to get the axe. Had the axe and everything in the loot room, looked at my computer time and it's not even been 10 minutes......

10 minutes in and I never need to go caving again. (story gear like the rebreather aside ofc, but who gives a ♥♥♥♥ about the story?)

Not like caving is a hassle though, with how weak enemies in this game are. Hell, I might make another suggestion thread asking for a very hard setting, with enemy health 1.5X hard health and 3x the damage.

[BananaKaboom]

I think this thread is a microcosm if what's wrong with the game's development.

They created too many items that don't really matter - in this case the rusty axe. Now they have to spend time figuring out exactly where to put everything in order to make it "balanced", which isn't even a thing in a game where you can just run by the mutants, molotov everything, or just kill them in 5-6 spear hits.

You could put the modern axe on the top of Mount Doom for all I care; I'm still not going to go for it, because now chopping trees increases strength per swing instead of trees cut down.

So they'll spend time swapping the axes, nerfing the crafted version, or fiddling with the strength gain system, and the game will just end up becoming harder for everyone again.