Are Steroids' Ultra Mutations underpowered?

[Daniel West]

Hi all,

I've been playing Steroids pretty heavily lately and something I've noticed is that his ultra mutations seem to be pretty useless.

1. Ambidextrous (Weapon chests drop two of the same weapon) It's always a huge risk, ammo-wise to go dual wielding with just one weapon type. Plus, you're giving up the flexibility that having two different weapons gives you. Honestly, the best thing about this mutation IMO is that it gives you twice as much ammo out of weapon chests.

2. Get Loaded (Ammo chests contain all ammo types) For starters, big ammo chests aren't that common (just one per level unless using the Crown of Love), and secondly, I don't ever *want* all ammo types! I'm never going to be changing weapons so frequently that this is remotely useful.

Basically, Steroids' Ultras both feel very weak in relation to the other characters. Was this an intentional decision? If so, that feels sort of weird since I like the idea of an ultra mutation drastically mixing up how you play a character.

any thoughts?

[stereobub]

Steroids A Ultra is lots of fun though. I think thats what it supposed to be: Dual-wield any weapon you want, and after your ammo situation gets risky you get a new set of two weapons anyway.

Basically survive a level with a dual-wielding build, then go for more or choose a new set of two weapons.

[Oscarg]

They do feel rather lackluster, A seems fine but that one also becomes useless as soon as you get your weapon of choice. So both of his ultra mutations end up very weak late game in comparison to other character's ultras.

[LeonidasCraft]

Originally posted by Oscarg:

They do feel rather lackluster, A seems fine but that one also becomes useless as soon as you get your weapon of choice. So both of his ultra mutations end up very weak late game in comparison to other character's ultras.

You're not really supposed to keep the same weapons forever, you're supposed to be constantly switching out when needed, so his A is fine. They're changing looping eventually anyway.

[Riiakhan]

I fail to see the need to dual-wield most weapons in the game so I'd rather his A mutation be altered so that he always gets big weapon chests and if you get the crown of choice then you could get two big weapon chests in a level. Basically allowing Steroids more choice in what weapons to carry with him. Cause 2 Nuke Launcher? Unless I have Boiling Veins that is just not feasible to use, and hell, even with Boiling Veins I'll end up wasting most of my health away just for a few seconds of ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles. 2 SMGs? 2 Miniguns? 2 Laser/Plasma Miniguns? Well since I didn't get the option to pick Eagle Eyes it means that they're just a waste of ammo. And my favorite drop with Ambidexterous: 2 Screwdrivers.

I think Ambidexterous is useless with about half the weapons in the game and most of the time I pick it I end up getting 2 weapons that are just not feasible to use with it, even for a short while.

So yeah, the neat'ness of 'occasionally' getting to dual-wield 2 miniguns when you have Eagle Eyes and Recycle Gland is few and faaaaar between. I'd rather they change it so that his A mutations is useful all the time. Getting guaranteed bigger weapon chests allow you more choice in what weapons to carry around with you and you might just end up with dual-wielding stuff at some point anyway.

As to Get Loaded, it is useless. Crown Of Choice is more useful. Crown Of Love is more useful. Lucky Shot is even more useful.

Get Loaded basically gives you 1 ammo pack per ammo type. But if I have max in three other ammo types which I'm not using and won't be using for a while then that means I only get 1 ammo for each of the two I'm using. It's just not useful. Ambidexterous is better because if 2 weapons of the ammo type you're using drops it means you get 4 ammo packs for that ammo type 'and' you sometimes get the option to dual wield something fun.

And even if we're not gonna delve into the math of it all: Get Loaded is just not a fun mutation. It's not fun. At all. Picking 3 more mutations as Melting is fun. Enemies dropping chests as Fish is fun. Enemies exploding with radiation as Horror is fun. Getting 3 ammo packs which are useless because their ammo pools are maxed is not fun.

An easy (albeit boring) solution to this? Change it so that when you Pick Get Loaded an ammo chest drops 5 ammo packs from it which your character then picks up. Allowing the distribution system to handle where the ammo go.

I still find both mutations boring, unimaginative, impractical and not even close to equals to other characters' Ultra Mutations and would rather they swap them out completely.

But if they have to stay in the game? Change A so it always spawn big weapon chests and change B so that ammo chests drop 5 ammo packs.

[LeonidasCraft]

Originally posted by Sallad-Eating Hussy:

I fail to see the need to dual-wield most weapons in the game so I'd rather his A mutation be altered so that he always gets big weapon chests and if you get the crown of choice then you could get two big weapon chests in a level. Basically allowing Steroids more choice in what weapons to carry with him. Cause 2 Nuke Launcher? Unless I have Boiling Veins that is just not feasible to use, and hell, even with Boiling Veins I'll end up wasting most of my health away just for a few seconds of ♥♥♥♥♥ and giggles. 2 SMGs? 2 Miniguns? 2 Laser/Plasma Miniguns? Well since I didn't get the option to pick Eagle Eyes it means that they're just a waste of ammo. And my favorite drop with Ambidexterous: 2 Screwdrivers.

I think Ambidexterous is useless with about half the weapons in the game and most of the time I pick it I end up getting 2 weapons that are just not feasible to use with it, even for a short while.

So yeah, the neat'ness of 'occasionally' getting to dual-wield 2 miniguns when you have Eagle Eyes and Recycle Gland is few and faaaaar between. I'd rather they change it so that his A mutations is useful all the time. Getting guaranteed bigger weapon chests allow you more choice in what weapons to carry around with you and you might just end up with dual-wielding stuff at some point anyway.

As to Get Loaded, it is useless. Crown Of Choice is more useful. Crown Of Love is more useful. Lucky Shot is even more useful.

Get Loaded basically gives you 1 ammo pack per ammo type. But if I have max in three other ammo types which I'm not using and won't be using for a while then that means I only get 1 ammo for each of the two I'm using. It's just not useful. Ambidexterous is better because if 2 weapons of the ammo type you're using drops it means you get 4 ammo packs for that ammo type 'and' you sometimes get the option to dual wield something fun.

And even if we're not gonna delve into the math of it all: Get Loaded is just not a fun mutation. It's not fun. At all. Picking 3 more mutations as Melting is fun. Enemies dropping chests as Fish is fun. Enemies exploding with radiation as Horror is fun. Getting 3 ammo packs which are useless because their ammo pools are maxed is not fun.

An easy (albeit boring) solution to this? Change it so that when you Pick Get Loaded an ammo chest drops 5 ammo packs from it which your character then picks up. Allowing the distribution system to handle where the ammo go.

I still find both mutations boring, unimaginative, impractical and not even close to equals to other characters' Ultra Mutations and would rather they swap them out completely.

But if they have to stay in the game? Change A so it always spawn big weapon chests and change B so that ammo chests drop 5 ammo packs.

Ok, look. Steroids's A is fine the way it is. Being able to dual wield weapons in the first place is amazingly useful, and that's ignoring how good his throne butt is. And how is amidexterus useless with half of the weapons in the game? Maybe like 10 or twelve, but that's still out a ton others.

I understand the problems with Get Loaded, and I honestly just think they should make it so you get like, 3 of each ammo type from ammo chests. That would work just fine and be great.

[splendid ledraps]

New ultra idea: able to hold 3 weapons. Just might be annoying to cycle through them, but I think it's a good addition

[LeonidasCraft]

Originally posted by Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

New ultra idea: able to hold 3 weapons. Just might be annoying to cycle through them, but I think it's a good addition

I asked the devs a while ago bout something to give you 3 weapons, they didn't like it if I remember.

[Daniel West]

I think I'll have to disagree with everyone saying 'ambidextrous is fine'. While there are a lot of weapons that are 'OK' to use duel wielding for a little while, by the point of ultra mutations I probably already have a weapons loadout that's better than any dual-wielded combo. You just lose so much flexibility when going with dual-wielding, not to mention the ammo risk. It's just not worth it.

Something perhaps worth thinking about would be Ambidextrous also giving some sort of bonus if you are carrying two of the same weapon. Something that makes duel-wielding a choice that's actually viable would be very interesting, since I'd love to be rocking double double miniguns without running out of ammo in 3 seconds!

[LeonidasCraft]

Originally posted by sqiddster:

I think I'll have to disagree with everyone saying 'ambidextrous is fine'. While there are a lot of weapons that are 'OK' to use duel wielding for a little while, by the point of ultra mutations I probably already have a weapons loadout that's better than any dual-wielded combo. You just lose so much flexibility when going with dual-wielding, not to mention the ammo risk. It's just not worth it.

Something perhaps worth thinking about would be Ambidextrous also giving some sort of bonus if you are carrying two of the same weapon. Something that makes duel-wielding a choice that's actually viable would be very interesting, since I'd love to be rocking double double miniguns without running out of ammo in 3 seconds!

You can, I don't know why people have been saying you can't. Dual wielding is completely viable in a loop, as then you'll get all the same ammo types. Plus you only have to think about how one weapon works, instead of worrying about how you're going to use each each. Though giving steroids a boost like perhaps, slightly higher accuracy while carrying two of the same weapon might be good. So like, maybe it would make steroids with eagle eyes closer to other characters with eagle eyes. Probably not to the same level, but closer.

[actualized animal]

It's always a huge risk, ammo-wise to go dual wielding with just one weapon type.

Not really. Holding two weapons of the same type means that all ammo pickups will give you the same ammo type, so you won't have to worry about switching between two different weapons and using the ammo you have the most of so you can get ammo in the weapon you want to use.

[Daniel West]

The problem with ammo isn't your ability to pick it up, it's about your capacity. If you're using two different weapon types, you essentially have twice the capacity as if you just have the one. With the right weapons you can drain through even a Back Muscle's 99 ammo in no time. And without Back Muscle? forget it.

[Riiakhan]

Originally posted by LeonidasCraft #TeamIDPDHorror:

Ok, look. Steroids's A is fine the way it is. Being able to dual wield weapons in the first place is amazingly useful, and that's ignoring how good his throne butt is. And how is amidexterus useless with half of the weapons in the game? Maybe like 10 or twelve, but that's still out a ton others.

I'm not saying that dual-wielding isn't amazingly useful, you just need the right weapons to dual-wield.

So anyway, post-loop is the time you'll be able to use Ambidexterous so this is assuming you did not get Eagle Eyes for wide spread weapons or the weapon mutations useful for the weapons listed. (When I list SMG, you might've gotten Bone Marrow but not Recycle Gland)

Any low tier weapon apart from Assault Rifle is useless.
1. Screwdriver
2. Revolver
3. Machine Gun
4. Crossbow
5. Shotgun
6. Laser Pistol

Then we have the overkill energy weapons (Dual-wielding either of them will make you run out of ammo crazy fast)
7. Plasma Cannon
8. Lightning Cannon

Then we have the energy weapons which are just not useful without Laser Brain.
9. Laser Rifle

As well as a weapon that is garbage without Eagle Eyes
10. Laser Minigun

Oh and the new one.
11. Plasma Minigun

And let's not forget the unpredictable, rather low damage and slow lightning weapons. (Again, no Laser Brain or Eagle Eyes) I've been blind-sided far too many times by using these weapons. They are just not feasible to dual-wield in the long run IMO.
12. Lightning Pistol
13. Lightning Rifle
14. Lightning Shotgun (I tried dual-wielding this one, with Eagle Eyes, and it turned to ♥♥♥♥. Because of the low reload speed I ended up being blind-sided by the piranha dogs)

I almost forgot, the chaotic environment of post-loop is great for a slow charge up weapon right? Except it isn't, I tried using it, had to swap back immedietly.
15. Laser Cannon

So, Explosives. What if you did not get Boiling Veins? That means that pretty much any large explosion weapon is instantly useless to dual-wield as you 'will' kill yourself accidentally.
16. Grenade Launcher
17. Cluster Launcher
18. Nuke Launcher
19. Rocket Launcher
20. Gatling Rocket Launcher

Or how about a time-based explosive? Surely that'll help you when crystal spiders run at you? No. It will not.

21. Sticky Launcher

But toxicity can't surely backfire right? Except it does. And when all you got to work with is a weapon that'll surely kill you with its toxicity guess what happens when an explodo pod runs at you? Yeah.

22. Toxic Launcher
23. Toxic Bow

On a side note, the fire weapons are amazing to dual-wield with, as is the Blood Launcher and if you manage to keep your distance the Hyper Launcher is also quite useful. Grenade Shotgun and Grenade Rifle are fine as well. Though the rifle is so lackluster with its damage and explosions that I don't find it impactful enough to use, but that's just a personal preference.

24. Ion Cannon. (it is just not useful to rely solely on, the way it hurts enemies and the high ammo consumption along with how high the fire rate is, you'll end up wasting away all your ammo, leaving you offenseless. Happened to me once when the other weapon ran out of ammo and all I had was an Ion Cannon, ended up wasting the ammo super fast and then I was dead meat. I don't see how dual-wielding it would produce different results.)

For Melee weapons the only ones I'd say are garbage is:
25. Wrench
26. Jackhammer (The ammo runs out too quickly and explosive pickups yield the least ammo restored)

However, this is assuming that we never got Long Arms, so I'm gonna list everything but energy sword, why? Because in the chaos of post-loop you'll end up killing yourself using a non-long arms weapon by killing explodo-freaks too close to you. (Again, we never got Boiling Veins)

27. Energy Hammer (it costs far too much ammo to use)
28. Sledgehammer
29. Shovel
30. Blood Hammer
31. Lightning Hammer
32. Energy Screwdriver

Now then, let's move on to arrows.

33. Super Crossbow (overkill, wastes far too much ammo. Just got it actually and decided to dual-wield it against the crystal boss and I lost every bit of ammo within mere seconds.
34. Auto Crossbow (Without Eagle Eyes and/or Bone Marrow, this weapon is just garbage for Steroids, and using two? You'll end up wasting away about half the shots (if not more).
35. Heavy Crossbow. (You ever tried using two slow-reload weapons against a swarm of enemies? Yeah? How well did that go?)
36. Splinter Pistol (It's damage is just too meager)
37. Disc Gun (Come on... It's the disc gun... Do I really need to say more?)

The only Shotgun weapon I actually find useless (apart from the regular shotgun) is:
38: Super Flak Cannon (Ammo waste, I used it once (Not dual-wielding) and my ammo depleted within half a minute)

Finally, bullet weapons. No Eagle Eyes. These are ammo wasters. Even with every ammo mutation you'll have a hard time getting back your ammo trying to dual-wield any of these without Eagle Eyes:
39. Minigun.
40. Double Minigun
41. SMG
42. Triple Machingun
43. Quadruple Machingun

Oh and finally!
Ultra Weapons!
Why?
Cause they rely on radiation, I have on multiple occasions tried using two ultra weapons as Steroids and other characters and I always end up running out of radiation, leaving me stranded with nothing to defend myself with. But I'd say that it is not a wise idea for 'any' character to dual-wield ultra weapons. Even so, Steroids' Ambidexterous will be affected by them, so:

44. Ultra Shovel
45. Ultra Revolver
46. Ultra Crossbow
47. Ultra Grenade Launcher
48. Ultra Shotgun
49. Ultra Laser Pistol

Now, let me clarify something, if you play as Steroids, get Ambidexterous and have a mutation which 'would' make a weapon on this useful then feel free to 'temporarily' scratch it off the list. This is just a list of weapons that are potentially useless without the right mutations or which are just not feasible to dual-wield in the first place.

Either they consume too much ammo, or they are likely to kill you, or they are far too slow to deal with the cluster ♥♥♥♥ that can be post-loop, or they are just flat out too weak.

I play Steroids most of the time and I have extensively tested out Ambidexterous. I find it to be complete and utter garbage of a mutation. There are quite a lot of weapons that are 'not' viable to dual-wield in the long run or even useful as a "let's waste this ammo to just kill as much as possible before it runs out and then switch back" (Miniguns on 3_3 for example, but only if you spawn right next to the weapon chest), because I do that just fine with just one weapon, I fail to see why I'd need two, it isn't gonna help me. All it's gonna do is leave me offenseless when I run out of ammo and I return back to my original weapons only to find a few ravens firing at me, or an assassin catching up to me.

Fact is, changing it so that Ultra A always causes weapon chests to be big weapon chests would allow the player more freedom in 'how' to dual-wield weapon combos.

It would be far more useful than giving the player the amazing offer of 2 screwdrivers as opposed to just 1.

At least with a big weapon chest I'd get two other weapons along with the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ screwdriver...

[edit]


A little addendum, if anyone here is an amazingly skilled player who could dual-wield any of these weapons in post-loop without breaking a sweat: Just because you're that skilled doesn't mean the rest of us are or ever will be. Just because 'you' can make the most out of it doesn't mean the rest of us can. Just keep that in mind.

Same thing goes for me, perhaps I'm just ♥♥♥♥♥♥ at using whatever I listed here. Feel free to call me out on it if you've dual-wielded it just fine. (Just keep in mind that if you dual-wielded it with the proper weapon mutation then you didn't meet the criteria I based this list on)


[edit]

I finally got a relatively good run with Ambidexterous though it ended because of a damn shielder.
Got these from weapon chests:
-Double Shotgun (no shotgun fingers)
-Energy Hammer (no long arms or Laser Brain)
+Dragon
+Dragon
+Auto shotty (Amazing to spam out pellets with)
-Screwdriver (♥♥♥♥ this weapon...)
+Triple Machinegun (had Eagle Eyes + Recycle Gland)
+Auto Crossbow

So yeah, out of 9 chests I got 5 good drops and 4 really bad ones.
Surprisingly good run. Keyword being 'surprisingly' for me.

[Ishman]

I agree STRONGLY with the sallad eater.

Also this game has a tiny competitive component only implemented weeks ago. Balancing for those who've mastered the game is a non-starter argument.

[LeonidasCraft]

http://www.twitch.tv/leonidascraft/c/5874945

Originally posted by Sallad-Eating Hussy:

*snip*

For the Plasma Cannon and Super Flak, I direct you here http://www.twitch.tv/leonidascraft/c/5874945

I could see the plasma Minigun working out as long as you have ammo mutations.

Seriously, to list all the melees? No. You CAN use them without long arms, all you have to do is be careful. It's the same way you kill them BEFORE you're looping with a non long arms melee wep.

Another thing I have to say is that you listed a lot of the garbage weapons in the game as well, like toxic and the ion cannon. I understand that they're weapons you can get with this, but they're garbage dual wielding or not.

Also, the laser cannon is always good. Always. Slow reload? Get racing mind.

[Daniel West]

Even if dual wielding didn't suck most of the time, this mutation is still pretty bad because it's not like you're going to be weapon starved during a loop.