To everyone who hate Rogue or think she's broken

[Golden Boi]

A 5 minutes video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_kAqgMyISg

[PantSingular]

There's a fair chunk of this stuff that's just general game strategy or a skill showcase but bravo, you know I've always been in the "Rogue is a solid character" crowd.
Inspires me to want to find out even more ways to utilize that portal strike.

[Spoke]

ayyyy

[GreenTea]

#TeamRogue

[MimicMachine]

Rogue can do lots of things and I already knew most of this, I was just pointing out that you have to play her a certain way, (where as other characters can be played any way you want, maybe not melting but even he has more options available to him than Rogue really does if you have to play aggresively)

I do like the idea of Rogue I just didn't like that she couldn't do what she is being claimed as (basically as you look at the other characters on the title screen you have an idea of how to play them in a way that fits but Rogue is by far the most misleading and that is why I'm complaining)
well that and Blast Armour is odd as a melee defense in a bullet hell game and doesn't always work like you hope in melee (again it is just a problem of it being misleading).

she is bugged/broken though as recently (in the last few updates, so not sure if they fixed it in the most recent) I have had problems where she explodes when nothing is near her (even stage props) usually losing half my health (I even looked very hard so as not to be mistaken that it was my own fault and I was being blind) it did happen a few times and was why I was really mad at Blast Armour, as well as the longer I played the more bugs I would encounter with her for some odd reason.

[fluury]

I mostly play Rogue and Y.V. in Nuclear Throne, Rogue because she is literally the worst character in the game, and with worst I mean UP. Doing well with an UP character doesn't make the character alright, it just shows the good sites of the bad character and just general non-character-dependend strats and plays.

Rogue's portal blast is supposed to be used to deal with masses of enemies (judging by the dev streams) - currently however it's way better to be used as - as shown in the video - making yourself some situations easier. You wouldn't believe it but in most cases map manupolation isn't needed, all it does is helping you out in a few situations. Her active shines when getting her throne butt, which really is more of an ultra than her current Ultras. Then it actually does what it was intended to be. Kinda.

Her active being "anti-bullet hell" isn't as good either, because obviously her active is doing the damage of a peanut and the bullet hell ends after 3_3 and never comes back anyways.

I want her to be hard because of the IDPD and other certain reasons, not because she is simply weak.

[splendid ledraps]

So you're just good at a the game. Doesnt mean rogue is a good character. Blast armor can create worse situations since it blows cover, and undoubtedly the default portal strikes suck, especially when they're one per level.

[jwaap]

Love this video!

[susie ʕ•.•ʔ]

♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ man, you play Rogue very well, I'm impressed.

[schizosid]

This is pretty cool, and I like how it showcases a lot of different strategies (not necessarily specific to Rogue). However, I think I'm still with Fluury and Ledraps on this one.

The neat extra things Portal Strike can do, such destroy bullets or create cover, are incidental if it struggles to kill groups of enemies even on Loop 0. Blast Armor is straight-up one of the worst passives in the game. Possibly, it actually is the worst, since it often hinders you, instead of helping.

I enjoy playing Rogue, but I would really like to see this character buffed and rebalanced.

[merlot]

I play every character aggressively and Rogue is still, by far, the worst character in the game.

[GreenTea]

Originally posted by schizosid:

Possibly, it actually is the worst, since it often hinders you, instead of helping.

It destroys cover, but saves you from bullet hell, thus making you play more aggressively, which is intended.

[schizosid]

Originally posted by GreenTea:

It destroys cover, but saves you from bullet hell, thus making you play more aggressively, which is intended.

So, forcing your character to actively run into situations that cause her to die is intended? I guess blowing up adjacent toxic gas canisters is intended too. Even Eyes' passive, terrible though it is, doesn't do anything to actually screw you over.

[Golden Boi]

Originally posted by LGS Sleepypants:

There's a fair chunk of this stuff that's just general game strategy or a skill showcase but bravo, you know I've always been in the "Rogue is a solid character" crowd.
Inspires me to want to find out even more ways to utilize that portal strike.

There are a lot of general stuff I want to talk about but I don't know where is a good place to say them. Might as well just put them in the video when there's a chance.

Originally posted by cuuubes:

Rogue can do lots of things and I already knew most of this, I was just pointing out that you have to play her a certain way, (where as other characters can be played any way you want, maybe not melting but even he has more options available to him than Rogue really does if you have to play aggresively)

I do like the idea of Rogue I just didn't like that she couldn't do what she is being claimed as (basically as you look at the other characters on the title screen you have an idea of how to play them in a way that fits but Rogue is by far the most misleading and that is why I'm complaining)
well that and Blast Armour is odd as a melee defense in a bullet hell game and doesn't always work like you hope in melee (again it is just a problem of it being misleading).

she is bugged/broken though as recently (in the last few updates, so not sure if they fixed it in the most recent) I have had problems where she explodes when nothing is near her (even stage props) usually losing half my health (I even looked very hard so as not to be mistaken that it was my own fault and I was being blind) it did happen a few times and was why I was really mad at Blast Armour, as well as the longer I played the more bugs I would encounter with her for some odd reason.

"Aggressive" is just a name for a wide range of playstyle, not something totally one dimensional. There are a lot of way to be aggressive. I've been playing aggressively for quite a while and I must say there's still a lot for me to discover.

And if you ask me Rebel is way more boring than anyone else in the game. I don't find it fun to just spam allies, and I couldn't find other fun way to play her.

Well, rocket wasn't intended for jumping too, and I don't think any developer would imagine that people actually use rocket to jump higher, but rocket jumping is a big thing in many games nonetheless.
There's no point arguing what a character is "supposed" to do, the author is dead.

Blast Armor is good for clearing out bullets, not just as a melee defense.

I've been playing Rogue almost exclusively and I can't recall encountering such bug.

Originally posted by Fluury #JWplsBuffYVsBUltra:

I mostly play Rogue and Y.V. in Nuclear Throne, Rogue because she is literally the worst character in the game, and with worst I mean UP. Doing well with an UP character doesn't make the character alright, it just shows the good sites of the bad character and just general non-character-dependend strats and plays.

Rogue's portal blast is supposed to be used to deal with masses of enemies (judging by the dev streams) - currently however it's way better to be used as - as shown in the video - making yourself some situations easier. You wouldn't believe it but in most cases map manupolation isn't needed, all it does is helping you out in a few situations. Her active shines when getting her throne butt, which really is more of an ultra than her current Ultras. Then it actually does what it was intended to be. Kinda.

Her active being "anti-bullet hell" isn't as good either, because obviously her active is doing the damage of a peanut and the bullet hell ends after 3_3 and never comes back anyways.

I want her to be hard because of the IDPD and other certain reasons, not because she is simply weak.

I don't think she's UP, to me she's just hard to get into, and I am never a big fan of her butt.

Again, it's futile to argue with what something is "supposed" to do. I don't care about what everything was supposed to do, when the game throws random ♥♥♥♥ to my face I will try my best to make the best out of it, even if it is a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Cursed Disc Gun.

Bullet hell still exists in 5_1 ~5_3 (on open space) and 7_1~7_2, don't even mention mass scorpions in loop. And sometimes I would intentionally tank one scorpion's shot to clear a field.

Map manipulation isn't needed for most of the case, but the same could be applied to pretty of other abilities as well. I could do a L4 Chicken run without using her active and passive once (if I die I just let her die), that doesn't mean the abilities are pointless. I mean, you wouldn't say YV's fire rate boost is pointless.

Originally posted by Ledraps: the splendid Sheep:

So you're just good at a the game. Doesnt mean rogue is a good character. Blast armor can create worse situations since it blows cover, and undoubtedly the default portal strikes suck, especially when they're one per level.

There's no way we can say she's bad either, in this situation we can only say that "we don't understand her", because it could be that I am just too bad to understand that I don't understand anything. Look up on Dunning–Kruger effect.

Originally posted by schizosid:

Originally posted by GreenTea:

It destroys cover, but saves you from bullet hell, thus making you play more aggressively, which is intended.

So, forcing your character to actively run into situations that cause her to die is intended? I guess blowing up adjacent toxic gas canisters is intended too. Even Eyes' passive, terrible though it is, doesn't do anything to actually screw you over.

I rarely die to her Blast Armor to be honest. Sometimes it actually helps me by creating some space to maneuver.

Again I don't care how everything is "intended", I try to make use of everything I got. Rather than "punish you for staying behind cover", I see it as "reward you for getting out of cover".

[MimicMachine]

one sided as Rebel is, even she has different play styles compared to Rogue, while technically Rogue can be played as any none are truly as effective as agressively and 75% of my runs are Rogue and that bug has happened in a few areas in several playthroughs for me (might be something specific), in the last 3 updates and happens more often the longer I play, I usually start to see it after 2-4 hours of straight playing. If you haven't gotten it then that's a good thing.

areas 5 and 7 aren't really bullet hell, 1 is the most bullet hell if only because scorpians and even 3 isn't that bad in the amount of bullets (this is exculding bosses that aren't that bad when you know what you're doing) so bullet destroying isn't super useful pre loop

A horrible character can loop, a character without mutations and any abilites can loop, the only reason I tried so hard with Rogue is that I'm stubborn and I want to prove others wrong when they tell me something is bad, but Rogue isn't fun to play and I can no longer drive myself to play her that seriously. Something broken is not good no matter how you compensate for it, for instance (this is an extreme example) if you could play as a maggot enemy (doing only the things it does now) would you call that balanced with no weapons, abilities, and can only run into enemies while taking and doing contact damage, even if you could loop with it? As right now that is how your words are coming across (look she is not unbalanced, she could be played if you do only these specific steps every single time you play her)

even if aggresive is a "wide" variety of playstyles, players have stated they want options (take for instance the Crossbow nerf discussion, its not really about nerfing crossbows btw) and being limited to it is something the other characters don't do, they can be used defensively or offensively.

from a aesthetic view on her description, she is on the run after taking anprototype super weapon and said weapon should have flaw which it does (having 3 shots and only 1 refill per level pre-loop) but this weapon that causes an entire army of blue guys to hunt her down does next to nothing on anyone.

the main reasons why Blast Armour is bad is because
1. it triggers on damage, this point is you get hit which is contradictive to your survival (if you were a god/machine at this game then this would never help you at any point unlike other characters)

2. there are 3 basic ways to take damage: 1. get punched in the face (still doesn't help), 2. get hit by a ranged attack (cool it blows up bullets but the enemy is not next to you), 3. blow up (it does this to you)
Melee should be the best place having explosive armour would help from an aesthetic view.

3. Rebel had blast armour instead of healing, and she was the worst and least liked character at that time and so moving this passove doesn't change if its good.

4. explosions aren't that good (cool though) as discussed in Flurry's post about it, they deal no real damage (its mostly in impact damage)

your free to like and think that she is good, but she needs help and shouldn't be as unbalanced as Horror or Rebel were (in a negative way compared to them though).

P.S. IDPD were never a problem, the only time is when 2 shielders spawn on 1-1 and even then you can reasonably deal with them but they just sponge up all your ammo and leave you very low for the next level and why it's nice that this was sorta changed

[Golden Boi]

Originally posted by cuuubes:

one sided as Rebel is, even she has different play styles compared to Rogue, while technically Rogue can be played as any none are truly as effective as agressively and 75% of my runs are Rogue and that bug has happened in a few areas in several playthroughs for me (might be something specific), in the last 3 updates and happens more often the longer I play, I usually start to see it after 2-4 hours of straight playing. If you haven't gotten it then that's a good thing.

When I was making that video, I had to watch all the clips I recorded. I don't recall seeing anything buggy. I don't have very good eyes though.

Originally posted by cuuubes:

areas 5 and 7 aren't really bullet hell, 1 is the most bullet hell if only because scorpians and even 3 isn't that bad in the amount of bullets (this is exculding bosses that aren't that bad when you know what you're doing) so bullet destroying isn't super useful pre loop.

But they look bullet hell enough to me, may be because I am always on Crown of Blood and like rushing to open space.

Originally posted by cuuubes:

A horrible character can loop, a character without mutations and any abilites can loop, the only reason I tried so hard with Rogue is that I'm stubborn and I want to prove others wrong when they tell me something is bad, but Rogue isn't fun to play and I can no longer drive myself to play her that seriously. Something broken is not good no matter how you compensate for it, for instance (this is an extreme example) if you could play as a maggot enemy (doing only the things it does now) would you call that balanced with no weapons, abilities, and can only run into enemies while taking and doing contact damage, even if you could loop with it? As right now that is how your words are coming across (look she is not unbalanced, she could be played if you do only these specific steps every single time you play her)

I did not recall being restricted to do some specific steps when I play as her. I play in the way I want to play (though I stopped playing defensively several months ago, and I found Rogue pointless back then). If I was struggling to have fun playing as her then I wouldn't play as her to begin with. I don't even think I am 50% good enough to utilize her abilities.

I don't care about balance, it is not a multiplayer game and I am not playing this for money. I want to have fun (to me balance is never a necessary condition for fun), and I have fun playing as her in the ways I showed. I don't understand why people said she's bad, so I made a video to tell everyone that this is how I play and she looks fine to me, audience might want to try this out. If you still don't find her fun to play as, it's fine, I don't like Rebel either, but I won't explicitly say she's broken or whatever, I will only say she looks boring for me. Also I don't think it's fun to play as maggot.

Originally posted by cuuubes:

the main reasons why Blast Armour is bad is because
1. it triggers on damage, this point is you get hit which is contradictive to your survival (if you were a god/machine at this game then this would never help you at any point unlike other characters)

2. there are 3 basic ways to take damage: 1. get punched in the face (still doesn't help), 2. get hit by a ranged attack (cool it blows up bullets but the enemy is not next to you), 3. blow up (it does this to you)
Melee should be the best place having explosive armour would help from an aesthetic view.

3. Rebel had blast armour instead of healing, and she was the worst and least liked character at that time and so moving this passove doesn't change if its good.

4. explosions aren't that good (cool though) as discussed in Flurry's post about it, they deal no real damage (its mostly in impact damage)

your free to like and think that she is good, but she needs help and shouldn't be as unbalanced as Horror or Rebel were (in a negative way compared to them though).

I am a human, not a god, why would I care how god plays this game? Might as well just say there's no point taking Bloodlust or Second Stomach because if you're a god and you don't need to get health. (also, Sharp Teeth)

I am not perfect, I understand my limit very well. I will take damage, and her Blast Armor allows me to care less about taking damage in general. And Blast Armor is pretty good at making extra space to maneuver which I really like. Also I like the idea of sacrificing health to do something I normally couldn't.

I do not seek to persuade everyone. I show you the ways I play Rogue, I can't do anything if you still insist that she's bad. Some players find the video inspiring and it makes them revalue Rogue as a rather special character. I am pretty happy about that. Very happy when I see comments like this on reddit:

I just tried this method, ♥♥♥♥ me I have been playing this character all wrong the whole time she's actually really good. the way I always thought about it was that she was about hiding and then releasing waves of high dmg, but aggressively this character just about rivals yv

Claiming she needs help is only your opinion, and might be the opinion of the majority, but the mass is not always correct, not always knowing what they actually want, not always knowing what's actually good for them. There's a reason why game designers are called game designers. Taking all feedback into account, devs will decide how they should change Rogue eventually. As a normal player, I already did all I could to make the most out of Rogue.