Last wish, and the jungle.

[Yowaiko]

No, this isn't a thread to complain about it.

I haven't stopped gawking at the cool new bug enemy long enough to get past the jungle yet, but I think it's safe to assume that it also shows up on loop. If it doesn't, it should. The jungle could be a large pull for taking last wish.

Not only does it allow you to clear a whole level, at a reasonable cost, but it takes you to the jungle, which could potentially have better goodies for the player. Which, again, it should. At least, it should if the jungle is going to be used to validate last wish, and given that the jungle would only appear once per oppurtunity to beat the thrones again, it seems like a fair way to validate the mutation while still retaining an air of "this isn't going to help you all the time, but it will aid you in bursts" without just giving the player a few bits of health and closing up shop.

Am I the only one who thinks that it should be used this way? All I've seen is people complaining about the method of getting to the jungle.

Edit: So, I just did a run to see if it appeared on loop. Didn't manage to go to the first jungle, but the second flower did appear on loop. It got destroyed because it wasn't near enough to spawn for me to snatch it, unfortunately.

[fluury]

What? Sorry but I disagree heavily.

Last wish will always stay terrible if it doesnt get some kind of permanent effect, that's it. You can stick as many tiny gimmicks to it as you want it'll stay terrible and not fun at all for eternity. Being forced to take it to visit something neat is just plain poop.

Being able to clear a hole level is worth nothing compared to what the other mutations could give you, it also only allows you to clear 5-1 at the cost of HP, dont forget that. You wanna clear a level when you are at low hp - at a situation where you are in trouble, guess what you cant do that. The Jungle also doesnt really give you any better goodies, too. It's just a plain level which offers you no advantage at all at the cost of wasting an entire mutation slot.

Scrap the entire last wish part, give the jungle something which makes it worth it going there and make Last wish actually something to use, it isnt being taken by players which have played this game for more than 10 minutes and it surely wont be taken by veterans.

[preek]

I'm liking the addition. I agree that Last Wish is still suboptimal in 99% of cases, but at least now there is a reason for veterans to take it - it grants access to a fun and challenging area.

I mean, if your sole objective in playing Nuclear Throne is just to min-max and get as high a score as possible on every run, then sure, you'll skip it and the jungle (as it is, at least). But now it adds variety and an optional challenge, if you feel like taking it on that particular run, and that seems like fun to me, at least.

[fluury]

Originally posted by Ve:

I'm liking the addition. I agree that Last Wish is still suboptimal in 99% of cases, but at least now there is a reason for veterans to take it - it grants access to a fun and challenging area.

I mean, if your sole objective in playing Nuclear Throne is just to min-max and get as high a score as possible on every run, then sure, you'll skip it and the jungle (as it is, at least). But now it adds variety and an optional challenge, if you feel like taking it on that particular run, and that seems like fun to me, at least.

Fun is for everyone different, and for me fun is both doing stupid things and srs bsns stuff. Other secret areas I can take when doing both srs bsns runs and stupid things, but the Jungle is just for stupid things because it literally only has downsides.

[Yowaiko]

Originally posted by Fluury #JWplsBuffYVsBUltra:

Originally posted by Ve:

I'm liking the addition. I agree that Last Wish is still suboptimal in 99% of cases, but at least now there is a reason for veterans to take it - it grants access to a fun and challenging area.

I mean, if your sole objective in playing Nuclear Throne is just to min-max and get as high a score as possible on every run, then sure, you'll skip it and the jungle (as it is, at least). But now it adds variety and an optional challenge, if you feel like taking it on that particular run, and that seems like fun to me, at least.

Fun is for everyone different, and for me fun is both doing stupid things and srs bsns stuff. Other secret areas I can take when doing both srs bsns runs and stupid things, but the Jungle is just for stupid things because it literally only has downsides.

Note that the jungle is not finished yet. We don't know what is in store as far as goodies go.
This discussion is here to pose ideas for additions to the jungle that could help validate last wish, not to talk about how great it is as of current. Because it is terrible, as of now.

[Umbaupause]

Maybe it's really just a test, to see if they properly implemented having a certain mutation to unlock a secret area... And since nearly nobody picks last wish, they thought that might keep it a nice secret while still being able to test it? But that's just a theory!

[Sentinel Greg]

I'm excited to see what the purpose of all the various secret levels are. Currently, the prospect of going through the jungle is exciting because it is pretty difficult, and you have to sacrifice a chunk of health to get there. Stressful and fun combination.

I DON'T think that last wish should be the only way to get to the jungle.

But I do like the idea of turning Last wish into a more meta mutation, that by choosing it a lot of cool little secret things like this happen throughout the game that must be discovered.

- move all weapon drops one level down, a la robot (this should probably just be it's own mutation)
- Give you the ability to swap cursed weapons out, not just for each other.
- Refill ALL your ammo, even with back muscle
- additional secret levels, etc.


Implementing all of these is probably too OP, but just some ideas.

[Yowaiko]

Originally posted by Sentinel Greg:

I'm excited to see what the purpose of all the various secret levels are. Currently, the prospect of going through the jungle is exciting because it is pretty difficult, and you have to sacrifice a chunk of health to get there. Stressful and fun combination.

I DON'T think that last wish should be the only way to get to the jungle.

But I do like the idea of turning Last wish into a more meta mutation, that by choosing it a lot of cool little secret things like this happen throughout the game that must be discovered.

- move all weapon drops one level down, a la robot (this should probably just be it's own mutation)
- Give you the ability to swap cursed weapons out, not just for each other.
- Refill ALL your ammo, even with back muscle
- additional secret levels, etc.


Implementing all of these is probably too OP, but just some ideas.

Well, given that (as far as I can tell) you can just farm exp on the maggots, that's a good pull for taking last wish, imo. Get the ultra before little hunter, and if you're horror you can use your beam earlier. As a bonus, if you're horror you can take total recall and throw away the last wish "mutation"
Edit: looking back to an earlier run, as horror, I spent about 40 minutes strafing around a large fly awaiting maggots. None came. Either they have a maggot cap, or their fire rate is terrible.

[actualized animal]

Why not just combine Last Wish with Strong Spirit?

[fluury]

Originally posted by Collen N.:

Why not just combine Last Wish with Strong Spirit?

Strong Spirit doesnt need a buff.

[Misery]

I always seem to be the only one that thinks Last Wish is fine as it is. It's an emergency tool... nothing more. You take it if you've made a pile of mistakes and are super low on health. I use it when necessary... it can be a run-saver.

Though, since the popular opinion is otherwise, I suppose a buff of some sort would do. I've no clue what it should be.

As for the jungle, I think it's a very bizarre way to open it up. It really doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Were it up to me, I'd change it, but not sure as to what requirement would replace it. Granted, it's not the only secret level with some bloody strange way of opening it; beating Big Bandit to the ground super fast in the middle of a desert wasteland and thus being sucked into the ocean as a result doesnt make any real sense either.

I do think that the jungle needs some specific reason to go there, some benefit of some sort. It's a pretty mean place, as the enemies that appear there are pretty darn nasty. And you have to sacrifice 4 HP to do it.

[Yowaiko]

Originally posted by Misery:

I always seem to be the only one that thinks Last Wish is fine as it is. It's an emergency tool... nothing more. You take it if you've made a pile of mistakes and are super low on health. I use it when necessary... it can be a run-saver.

Though, since the popular opinion is otherwise, I suppose a buff of some sort would do. I've no clue what it should be.

As for the jungle, I think it's a very bizarre way to open it up. It really doesnt make a whole lot of sense. Were it up to me, I'd change it, but not sure as to what requirement would replace it. Granted, it's not the only secret level with some bloody strange way of opening it; beating Big Bandit to the ground super fast in the middle of a desert wasteland and thus being sucked into the ocean as a result doesnt make any real sense either.

I do think that the jungle needs some specific reason to go there, some benefit of some sort. It's a pretty mean place, as the enemies that appear there are pretty darn nasty. And you have to sacrifice 4 HP to do it.

Well, as of now, the jungle is only really a hindrance. If the only reason to go there is really chicken, it's a thorough disappointment, especially when compared to all secret areas previous.

[Boss Cipher%]

Lets all agree on this,Last wish is FAR FROM PERFECT.

We all know that last wish is rarely used and now we have to have it before 5-1 so we can get to the jungle.

Vlambeer has said before that the jungle is where you will unlock chicken one day but still...

I think they should change it to something else,i get that they are trying to make last wish useful but just adding a plain gimik to it is not the right way to handle this.

I suggest just have the plant spawn some different way and buff last wish by actually not being a ONE USE MUTATION(maybe regenerate ammo or hp slowly? idk.)

[Golden Boi]

In a rogue-like game, your state of surviving is a permanent manifestation of all the choices your have previously made. If by taking Last Wish you survive a critical situation, then it doesn't even matter if the effect itself is permanent or not. Anyone might argue that Last Wish is itself bad because the effect is not great, it is fine that way, but using permanence as an argument against Last Wish is futile and missing the point.

Sacrifice is always a very important theme in rogue-like.

[GreenTea]

The thing is though, there is quite a lot of mutations that help you almost instantly too, while also providing a permanent benefit. (rhino skin and last wish are the best examples)

[fluury]

Originally posted by Bigdoor:

In a rogue-like game, your state of surviving is a permanent manifestation of all the choices your have previously made. If by taking Last Wish you survive a critical situation, then it doesn't even matter if the effect itself is permanent or not. Anyone might argue that Last Wish is itself bad because the effect is not great, it is fine that way, but using permanence as an argument against Last Wish is futile and missing the point.

Sacrifice is always a very important theme in rogue-like.

The Problem is that it is random, means that its VERY VERY rare that you actually get it when you are on low hp.

In my almost 400 hours of playing this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game Last wish has NEVER been good yet, it NEVER showed up when I needed it, even as a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ new player.

Even Y.V.'s B Ultra has been useful once yet, but that is mostly because the throne eats all of your ammo.

Last Wish will never be useful if it'll stay in the same manner as it is now.