Plasma weapons

[fluury]

NOTE : I AM TALKING ABOUT THE ONE SHOT PLASMA WEAPONS, THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT THE SUPER PLASMA CANNON OR THE PLASMA CANNON.
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It's no secret that plasma weapons are not popular, and I can only hook myself up to that boat. There is a number of reasons why plasma weapons are not good and people prefer other weapons for it, the main I'd say is that the plasma weapons do a medicore job at literally everything.

Here is the main problem : You cannot rely on this thing to actually fully hit your target. Plasmas work in the way that they hit the target multiple times, and that's bad. Why is that bad?

Because its HEAVILY unreliable. When you shoot a slugger at a scorpion you will be sure this thing will hit it and kill it, with plasmas on the other hand you will never know if that thing will actually be good enough to kill the target.

Here is another large problem : This thing is very very difficult to use at a price of "ok" damage, it's very slow, so using it at enemies which actually move will be hard, especially crystal spiders.

At close range what can even happen is that the enemy gets hit ONCE and then the plasma just flies off, leaving you with damage due to its odd hitbox and way of dealing damage.

"Use it on the enemies which dont move then, duh"

Well, yes, you can do that.

Problem is there are way better alternatives which are not only 200% more reliable but also dont cost as much ammo.

Let me just compare two things with eachother : The slugger and the plasma weapons.

A slug is dealing 22 each shot, a plasma shot can actually deal more damage than that. Problem is that its heavily dependend on the situation, so you can be left with either 6 damage or 36.

A slug will always hit the target you are aiming for, it'll be instantly dead.

A plasma shot will leave it to rami if it'll hit the enemy enough to kill it or if the enemy might just swoop around it.

Not to forget that wall thing which makes the plasma projectile lose size to make its damage even worse and hitbox tinier...

Here are a few examples of what the ♥♥♥♥ I mean : Note how in literally every example the a slug or bolt would've killed the target?

http://gfycat.com/TameAgitatedKarakul

http://gfycat.com/NearClearGazelle

http://gfycat.com/FinishedDependableAidi

Conclusion :

-Bad at long range/very hard to use at long range

-Not-effective-and-not-reliable way of dealing damage

-Bad damage to ammo ratio

-not good as a light hitter, not good as a heavy hitter.

[Solid]

As herald of the general direction Vlambeer goes I think we should accept that plasma is pretty much a part of the game and I don't see any major changes happening.

Personally I am not too bothered by plasma. Sure, they are generally the worst of the energy weapons, but they are functional. I see them as the straight man to contrast lasers and lightning against. Something needs to be there to make the other weapons look good. If they have committed any crimes it would being too dull. They do appear to be a bad version of crossbow or slugger like you said.

[fluury]

Originally posted by Solid:

As herald of the general direction Vlambeer goes I think we should accept that plasma is pretty much a part of the game and I don't see any major changes happening.

Personally I am not too bothered by plasma. Sure, they are generally the worst of the energy weapons, but they are functional. I see them as the straight man to contrast lasers and lightning against. Something needs to be there to make the other weapons look good. If they have committed any crimes it would being too dull. They do appear to be a bad version of crossbow or slugger like you said.

I dont ask it to be removed, I ask for it to be improved.

[Golden Boi]

I think it would be better to be in a different mindset with Plasma weapons to use them more effectively.

Plasma Gun and Rifle have four major properties:
1. Fast rate of fire, more so for the Rifle
2. Delayed effect because plasma projectile is slow
3. Effect has a duration
4. Area of effect

With these in mind, it is easy to come up with a special role with them. I see them as something that would provide both physical blockage (of enemies, not bullets, obviously) and field control at the same time. For example, before charging to an open field (with a considerable amount of enemies), I would shoot a few balls of plasma in different directions, then immedaitely charge in with my second weapon. Those plasma balls start doing their jobs right when I arrive at the field and attack with a different weapon. In this time frame I would be doing a lot of damage and have those plasma ball to shield me from charging enemies.

Overall, I love them. I don't think they need a change. They are very effective, at least for my playstyle.

[squerc]

yep if they were faster I'd prolly take em sometimes

[fluury]

Originally posted by Bigdoor:

I think it would be better to be in a different mindset with Plasma weapons to use them more effectively.

Plasma Gun and Rifle have four major properties:
1. Fast rate of fire, more so for the Rifle
2. Delayed effect because plasma projectile is slow
3. Effect has a duration
4. Area of effect

With these in mind, it is easy to come up with a special role with them. I see them as something that would provide both physical blockage (of enemies, not bullets, obviously) and field control at the same time. For example, before charging to an open field (with a considerable amount of enemies), I would shoot a few balls of plasma in different directions, then immedaitely charge in with my second weapon. Those plasma balls start doing their jobs right when I arrive at the field and attack with a different weapon. In this time frame I would be doing a lot of damage and have those plasma ball to shield me from charging enemies.

Overall, I love them. I don't think they need a change. They are very effective, at least for my playstyle.

That fills in a very very niche role which if you ask me weapons shouldnt do, they should be better for more things.

[[FAUCᴇT] Psychopath]

Originally posted by Solid:

I see them as the straight man to contrast lasers and lightning against. Something needs to be there to make the other weapons look good. If they have committed any crimes it would being too dull.

That's a horrible mentality. The weapons show up later than the Laser weapons. There's no reasonable excuse for them to be strictly worse to use. If the Plasma weapons never existed, the Lasers and Lightning would still be very strong energy options, there's no need to deliberately design bad weapons to exaggerate how good something else is. The only reason why Plasma Cannon variants are so good is because their effects are colossal and widespread, it's like firing a nuke at a spot without the risk of blowing yourself up.

Probably one of the first things to tackle is the literal edge cases where the ball will lightly tap an enemy and then continue on its way. The simplest way to do this is to induce a pulling on hit targets, all projectiles provide hitstun and light knockback. What I propose is for the Plasma projectile to have its directional knockback pull any enemies in direct contact with it toward the center, this would ensure that a near-hit/miss won't amount to a pittance of damage. For a weapon that has as slow a projectile as Plasma balls, this would do a lot towards making the weapons usable against things that know how to move.

[Gieron]

Originally posted by Fluury #JWplsBuffYVsBUltra:

http://gfycat.com/TameAgitatedKarakul

http://gfycat.com/FinishedDependableAidi

In both of these the Explosion part did nothing. The target being so small was knocked back by the projectile and was out of range of the explosions which is a big part of plasma weapons when it comes to their damage.

If i may suggest this to be fixed. Maybe by lowering how much knockback the projectile does to smaller targets.

Cos if the weapon does what it's supposed to then it demolishes stuff. Here's an example which some of ya already seen: http://www.twitch.tv/gieron666/c/6329444

When everything deals damage as it should bosses with 300 HP get destroyed in few seconds.

[Solid]

Originally posted by Fluury #JWplsBuffYVsBUltra:

Originally posted by Solid:

As herald of the general direction Vlambeer goes I think we should accept that plasma is pretty much a part of the game and I don't see any major changes happening.

Personally I am not too bothered by plasma. Sure, they are generally the worst of the energy weapons, but they are functional. I see them as the straight man to contrast lasers and lightning against. Something needs to be there to make the other weapons look good. If they have committed any crimes it would being too dull. They do appear to be a bad version of crossbow or slugger like you said.

I dont ask it to be removed, I ask for it to be improved.

I should have been more specific; I suspect current plasma is mostly here to stay.

Originally posted by FAUCeT Psychopath:

Originally posted by Solid:

I see them as the straight man to contrast lasers and lightning against. Something needs to be there to make the other weapons look good. If they have committed any crimes it would being too dull.

That's a horrible mentality.

Not really. For things to look good or bad there must be a point of comparison.

Originally posted by FAUCeT Psychopath:

The weapons show up later than the Laser weapons. There's no reasonable excuse for them to be strictly worse to use.

Except they are not strictly worse? That would be your perception talking.

Originally posted by FAUCeT Psychopath:

If the Plasma weapons never existed, the Lasers and Lightning would still be very strong energy options, there's no need to deliberately design bad weapons to exaggerate how good something else is. The only reason why Plasma Cannon variants are so good is because their effects are colossal and widespread, it's like firing a nuke at a spot without the risk of blowing yourself up.

I think you are doing just fine with the exaggeration on your own. You are the only one here going all in on 'bad'. Fluury pointed out the weapons had some issues, I argued that they are still functional, and hero Gieron introduced some trouble shooting that might solve the issue. This is not about the weapons being bad. This is about how good they should be compared with their counter parts. I mean look at what they are up against; lasers are a short list of the best attributes a weapon can have and lightning had auto-aim before auto-aim was cool. Even sluggers and crossbows are really good in comparison with the whole of Nuclear Throne's weapons. In the past I made arguments similar to Fluury's, however if there was a time for major change I suspect it has passed.

Originally posted by FAUCeT Psychopath:

Probably one of the first things to tackle is the literal edge cases where the ball will lightly tap an enemy and then continue on its way. The simplest way to do this is to induce a pulling on hit targets, all projectiles provide hitstun and light knockback. What I propose is for the Plasma projectile to have its directional knockback pull any enemies in direct contact with it toward the center, this would ensure that a near-hit/miss won't amount to a pittance of damage. For a weapon that has as slow a projectile as Plasma balls, this would do a lot towards making the weapons usable against things that know how to move.

This runs in line with Gieron's thoughts except Gieron's solution would be much easier to impliment.

[[FAUCᴇT] Psychopath]

Originally posted by Solid:

Not really. For things to look good or bad there must be a point of comparison.

The point of comparison is typically the first iteration that a player encounters. These are the baseline because it's the first thing: Revolver, Shotgun, Slugger, Crossbow, Grenade Launcher, Laser Pistol, Wrench and Screwdriver.

Everything that spawns from this point in the game and onward are compared to these baseline weapons. Later weapons are intended to be either strictly stronger (Shotgun vs Double Shotgun) or function differently enough to be unwieldy to easily utilize with only prior baseline understanding (Shotgun vs Flak Cannon).

[RunicRhythm]

ALL WE NEED IS A PLASMA SHOTTY

[sitzmak]

I think plasma guns are OK, but for one reason: the explosions it allows you to have some leeway if you miss, and deals damage to multiple enemies at once, albeit at a small range.

[pop pop]

(BAD ENGLISH)

so strange, but i think plasma weapons works good for big groups of low hp enemies: plasma ball deal damage for one of them and kill other nearly enemies with plasma explosion. best enemies for plasma weapons: big maggots, rats and freaks.

[Solid]

Originally posted by FAUCeT Psychopath:

Originally posted by Solid:

Not really. For things to look good or bad there must be a point of comparison.

The point of comparison is typically the first iteration that a player encounters. These are the baseline because it's the first thing: Revolver, Shotgun, Slugger, Crossbow, Grenade Launcher, Laser Pistol, Wrench and Screwdriver.

Everything that spawns from this point in the game and onward are compared to these baseline weapons. Later weapons are intended to be either strictly stronger (Shotgun vs Double Shotgun) or function differently enough to be unwieldy to easily utilize with only prior baseline understanding (Shotgun vs Flak Cannon).

Actually for a long time Vlambeer went to great pains to ensure that weapons would not directly surpass one another. The double shotgun is generally better, but not strictly better than the normal shotgun. There are a good number of weapons that the community believes are worse than the 1_1 drops; toxic launcher, sticky launcher, disc gun. Turns out there are a lot of subjective opinions about weapons floating around. I will agree that it is odd that there is an entire mid game weapon set that is underwhelming (I feel underwhelming is a very apt description for these weapons), however they are rather functional and still make others look desirable by comparison. (They are also really powerful if used under certain circumstances as noted by Gieron.)

[Golden Boi]

Originally posted by Fluury #JWplsBuffYVsBUltra:

Originally posted by Bigdoor:

I think it would be better to be in a different mindset with Plasma weapons to use them more effectively.

Plasma Gun and Rifle have four major properties:
1. Fast rate of fire, more so for the Rifle
2. Delayed effect because plasma projectile is slow
3. Effect has a duration
4. Area of effect

With these in mind, it is easy to come up with a special role with them. I see them as something that would provide both physical blockage (of enemies, not bullets, obviously) and field control at the same time. For example, before charging to an open field (with a considerable amount of enemies), I would shoot a few balls of plasma in different directions, then immedaitely charge in with my second weapon. Those plasma balls start doing their jobs right when I arrive at the field and attack with a different weapon. In this time frame I would be doing a lot of damage and have those plasma ball to shield me from charging enemies.

Overall, I love them. I don't think they need a change. They are very effective, at least for my playstyle.

That fills in a very very niche role which if you ask me weapons shouldnt do, they should be better for more things.

But why shouldn't weapons do what they can do? That sounds weird. They do something special that most other weapons couldn't do, which is pretty nice because that adds some variety. And they are pretty effective in situations with open field which is quite common.

I think unlike many other weapons, Plasma weapon is one kind of weapon that would be hard to use if you only think about using it alone. It would be better if we try to combine it with some other weapons and use them together.

[Golden Boi]

Just had a run with Plasma Gun, here are webms of how I play with Plasma Gun on three different levels.

http://webm.land/media/kt0y.webm
(At 20s mark you can see how I exploited the delayed explosion of Plasma ball to attack incoming Snowbot.)
http://webm.land/media/id8P.webm
http://webm.land/media/Duqn.webm

As you can see Plasma Gun is incredibly effective on different late game levels. You could argue that it is good because I have Laser Brain, but I don't believe it would make that much of a difference without it.