Lil' Hunter is WORSE than the Throne

[darugo06]

Alright, so this is another one of those posts ranting about Lil Hunter (as of Update 79), and how I feel he's a mess of a boss compared to the others and in most cases far worse than anything the Palace and Throne itself can throw at me in any given run. I've beaten him plenty of times, but died at least trice more simply due to how hard it is to deal with this boss.

While it's normal to have to deal with large herds of enemies surrounding you during a boss level, with Big Bandit and Big Dog this is mostly contained and even managable once you get used to it. With Big Bandit your main worries are scorpion's spitting at you from off screen and being harassed by armies of maggots, however you're given a good amount of time to at least find a nice corner to hide or clear out before he pops out of the wall. Big Dog's fight involves dealing with enemies without the comfort of walls to hid behind and seperate the action, forcing you to learn your way around a mosaic of bullets and hug some of the corners for the moments of breathe as you clear the field before Big Dog is woken up.

Now, with Lil Hunter, everything is a lot more messy. You're often stuck in narrow, crowded areas with enemies that focus more on charging at you with bullets and even themselves. You're only given barely enough time to clear the room you start out in, assuming you're lucky enough to get a room and not spawn in a large area with a crowd of snowbots ready to pounce or a hallway with some robo-dogs already shooting at you. My run lasting past 5-3 ends up relying more on if I have crowd control weapons ready for the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, or Hammerhead to run and hide, than it does if I can manage the situation through my own skill like with Big Bandit or Big Dog. Lil' Hunter wouldn't be there yet and I'd lose half my health in some cases, because of a bad spawn or an attempt to clear the area for soemthing closer to a 30% chance against the bastard than the normal 10%.

My next point is his methods of attack. Simply put, he has too many options, but lemme get into that.

Understandibly, the bosses get more difficult as you progress. Big Bandit has only two options and they depend on you distance, but are relatively easy to see coming and dodge once you know what you're doing. His gun's bullets are just fast enough to teach you to strafe to avoid them, and the visual cue before his melee charge is there to say "Hey, you should probably move right this moment." His larger than player size attests to how he is basically a beginner boss, and that's perfectly fine.

Moving onto Big Dog, assuming you're in the most optimal situation to handle him, you're left to deal with three main attacks. Big Dog will constantly draw closer as you fight it, which is a huge problem alone. The only way to push him back is with your bullets. Now, he has bullets too. They're fairly easy to dodge, just you the strafing you learned from Big Bandit and you're all good. But then he tosses rcokets are you that you're not going to find yourself dodging, and instead you're shooting at them. You're dealing with homing attacks, while you're using the circle strafing you've alreay used before, while you're keeping pressure on the boss itself so it won't crush you against the wall. By itself, this is easy to deal with, and even when a sniperor two is still alive behind Big Dog, you can mostly handle this with corners and strafing alone and not you don't have to rely on Hammerhead or certain weapons for the occasion.

Lil' Hunter fails to become something as managable as Big Bandit or Big Dog with situation handling alone. Right off the bat, he has about five attack patterns that are all quite deadly. First he'll land on you to deal contact and fire damage, often before you even have a chance to clear some space. Immediately after that, you're welcomed to a barrage of two different bullets. Bouncing slow bullets in a wave that would be managable if only distance allowed, and fast lines of regular bullets that can come too fast for you adequately dodge with most characters. You can hope for cover, but Lil' Hunter is most likely already in the only cover you had for this fight and is shooting you up before you can get soem distance. If that wasn't bad enough the I.D.P.D. are actively part of this fight, but don't expect them to attack the insane AWOL officer currently murdering you. You're the only one they care about and if Lil' Hunter isn't invading your cover, they are. This is the only managable part of this fight, as it shows you how the I.D.P.D. spawn in and how easily they can be taken care of as soon as they spawn.

Notice how you don't learn much from being landed on top of and rushed with two different kinds of bullets you can't possibly hope to dodge in the space you've run to as soon as you entered 5-3. This boss is less skill based and more equipment based, which is troubling for a rogue-like as you can definately have the wrong gear. From clearing an area to dealing with hi, you're expected to have weapons that can destroy crowds in the blink of an eye, as well as have the ability to create your own cover and make your own distance, you're basically expected to have Hammerhead or some time of explosive weapon to have a chance of surviving the shower of bullets Lil' Hunter's come to rain on you, and even that won't be much help when he lands on top of you again anyway.

I'm no game developer, but as a gamer I know when I'm being outskilled and when I'm outright being cheated due to circumstances I couldn't control. Whereas you're meant to take on Big Bandit and Big Dog head on, I feel like Lil' Hunter becomes the boss you're meant to lame out and run from. It feels like he's designed to make you hide behind cover and cower in fear from, forcing you to take pot shots when he's not looking while you handle the small army of snow-based robots and the waves of cops laser-guided on you and not their clearly unstable former companion. It feels backwards and messy compared to the other bosses, even the Nuclear Throne itself is about taking it head on and using you skills to dodge and handle it's barrages. Lil' Hunter makes the Throne feel like a walk in the park. Once I'm there, it's more a matter of my skill that determines whether I win or lose than it is whether I got the right mutation or the right guns for the situation, not to say that they don't factor in but they shouldn't become so heavy in determining the outcome of a boss fight. I feel like I'm restricted to getting certain weapons and always having Hammerhead or Boiling Veins or Strong Spirit if I want to go further in my run than 5-3. And even when I've gotten past 5-3, it's not surprising that even with all my decked out gear and mutations, I have never reached further than 5-3 Loop 1. Lil' Hunter is the true final boss of any run.

[level 30 yogurt male]

Well you made big dog sound super easy then say LH's bullet streams are impossible to dodge but I do agree.

One time I had super crossbow, bolt marrow and scarier face, one hit kill on LH. Risky, High DPS spamming is my most effective method of killing him, the sooner the fight's over the less bouncer bullets he can spew at you. Same can be said with Big Dog and missiles.

[level 30 yogurt male]

Sneebis님이 먼저 게시:

THEAETIK님이 먼저 게시:

Three things to take in account with this obnoxious bossfight

1) The difficulty curve BEFORE and AFTER Lil Hunter.

2) The terrible spawns - spawn in a tiny room with a large area connected above it - filled with 50 or so enemies that will rush you the F down.

3) IDPD spawns everywhere.

So instead of having this roll-a-dice feel, why not just have an empty area with lots of room to walk around and avoid enemy fire? Keep the IDPD spawns and make him a little harder, just remove all the mobs in the level...

I agree so much

I think a good space to fight little hunter would be an room with a centre area that can be full of enemies with a lot more cover around the sides that is only ever occupied by dogs and bandits. It'd give space to move around while keeping th fact that you have to be able to handle having a crowd of enemies, so instead of starting the level super risky like clearing out small tunnels before you get stomped you can cear out cover and start on the enemies in the large area like you would in the big dog fight

[Fried]

Stop necroing for ♥♥♥♥♥ sake

[Mana]

His explosion at death is kind of random and annoying, it makes killing him in closed spaces even harder, if the rng makes him hit the wall your closest to you don't have enough time to run. But then again, this game is full of unfair situations.

[ThatMasonBoiii]

Damn this boss to hell lol - I've ever got into loop once, so can't really say how good a player I am, what I do know is that this guy is the reason a lot of my runs end at 5 - 3. I want to be able to get to a level where I can manage him consistently, though there always seems to be some unpredictable element I haven't forseen come into play. Whether its the cops, or not having cover.

A lot of enemies in one small space is definitely something i've seen a lot. Me, him, two cops and a wolf a lot of the time and I do feel that the time required to take out nearby enemies and clear a space is a little too short.

[Mana]

Yep, you eaither need a weapon that can clear all the other enemies fast, or a melee weapon. It really limits the kind of weapons you can choose. I don't have so much trouble with other character but Í am stuck with the harder ones because I want to unlock fish's b-skin which ironically asks you to play more other characters than him. Screw me for liking the character right?

[ThatMasonBoiii]

Nifesta님이 먼저 게시:

Yep, you eaither need a weapon that can clear all the other enemies fast, or a melee weapon. It really limits the kind of weapons you can choose. I don't have so much trouble with other character but Í am stuck with the harder ones because I want to unlock fish's b-skin which ironically asks you to play more other characters than him. Screw me for liking the character right?

Yeah I been trying for that too. I only looped once though, with crystal, so its going to take me a while. I've got to 7 - 1 with fish couple of times. Got to 7 - 1 with melting though that was with SS and RS. So yeah it's going to take me a while to get gut with the other characters.

[Ragdollintothewall]

Regular elite IDPD are worse than lil Hunter. Shooting you while dodge rolling, reflecting your OP weapons back in your face, throwing bombs everywhere

[ThatMasonBoiii]

RhinoceritisDDS님이 먼저 게시:

Regular elite IDPD are worse than lil Hunter. Shooting you while dodge rolling, reflecting your OP weapons back in your face, throwing bombs everywhere

Yeah I saw a clip of a SPC bullet get reflected back and I was like 'jesus, and here I am struggling with hunter pre loop' haha.

[darugo06]

Jesus ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Necro, holy christ I forgot I even wrote this.

[Loona is Hot]

darugo06님이 먼저 게시:

Jesus ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Necro, holy christ I forgot I even wrote this.

Don't tease us then. How's your opinion on lil hunter since you made the therad?

[darugo06]

Legit Maid님이 먼저 게시:

darugo06님이 먼저 게시:

Jesus ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Necro, holy christ I forgot I even wrote this.

Don't tease us then. How's your opinion on lil hunter since you made the therad?

I've travelled to the furthest rings of Loop 4 before succumbing to the cursed "Out of Memory", and I've reach as far as 2-1 on Hardmode! I've got too many hours than a human should have in Nuclear Throne now and I have to say...

Ehh. Little Hunter's still kinda busted in the wrong situation, but I've learned and adapted enough to his shenanigans to take care of him with anything better than a simple revolver. I still think he should have had some more tweaking, but I can handle what he is now after playing far too long.

[ThatMasonBoiii]

darugo06님이 먼저 게시:

Legit Maid님이 먼저 게시:

Don't tease us then. How's your opinion on lil hunter since you made the therad?

I've travelled to the furthest rings of Loop 4 before succumbing to the cursed "Out of Memory", and I've reach as far as 2-1 on Hardmode! I've got too many hours than a human should have in Nuclear Throne now and I have to say...

Ehh. Little Hunter's still kinda busted in the wrong situation, but I've learned and adapted enough to his shenanigans to take care of him with anything better than a simple revolver. I still think he should have had some more tweaking, but I can handle what he is now after playing far too long.

So if I just keep playing eventually I'll get gut? lol I hope so haha. I just think I need to study him more and get to know the level a bit and then it might be bearable.

[darugo06]

cardinalfire님이 먼저 게시:

darugo06님이 먼저 게시:

I've travelled to the furthest rings of Loop 4 before succumbing to the cursed "Out of Memory", and I've reach as far as 2-1 on Hardmode! I've got too many hours than a human should have in Nuclear Throne now and I have to say...

Ehh. Little Hunter's still kinda busted in the wrong situation, but I've learned and adapted enough to his shenanigans to take care of him with anything better than a simple revolver. I still think he should have had some more tweaking, but I can handle what he is now after playing far too long.

So if I just keep playing eventually I'll get gut? lol I hope so haha. I just think I need to study him more and get to know the level a bit and then it might be bearable.

More like you'll get used to the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ and learn how to manage... sorry, that's the best advice I have.

[Dynamite Adams]

fluury님이 먼저 게시:

Giorno Giovanna님이 먼저 게시:

Please understand that it's been nerfed enough and I don't think vlambeer wants to nerf it anymore, I think it's been nerfed 3 times.
Just let it be, who cares if it's anti-newcomer, it is a roguelike, roguelikes are hard in every aspect, luck, trial and error, and skill.

we need to stop concentrating on nerfs and just work on the ending of the development of NT.

Besides, it looks like it's going to be over with updates in october, once there's a nerf you'll STILL complain...

I know a few in here who whined about it needing a nerf beforehand.

They're in here.

That is not how it works. No one said Updates will stop in October, people are free to complain about things.

Especially when they are anti-newcomer, it matters a lot, especially since vlambeer stated that they want the game to be a bit more newcomer friendly.

Well this post aged like wet ♥♥♥♥.